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Author Topic:   Polystrata fossils
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 4 of 50 (419988)
09-05-2007 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ihategod
09-05-2007 4:37 PM


Rapid Burial
vash writes:
By having polystrata fossils present in multiple rock strata does this not suggest that rapid burial is plausible?
Rapid burial is plausible - yes.
Why is rapid burial such a problem. This is often repeated strawman that creationist build. Depositions can and do happen quickly and slowly. Creationist trying to implant the idea in peoples minds that if they can demonstrate that depositions can happen quickly then the flood must have done it all!
Rapid burial happens in (regional) floods, volcanic episodes, mass wasting events, etc.
Look here is a recently uncovered forest that is a "polystrata" fossil in the making. These trees are 10000 years old....
News | Michigan Technological University
Further creationist like to point out the submerged trees in Spirit Lake next to Mount Saint Helens. If the submerged trees in Spirit Lake someday produce "polystrata" fossil trees what does that prove other than the fact that nominal earth processes produces vertically buried tress on occasions.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 8 of 50 (420153)
09-06-2007 12:58 PM


Polystrata Trees Problem for Flood Geology
Actually the more I think about it Polystrata Fossilized Trees is a huge problem for Flood geology!


Why are there not vast fossilized forests of vertical entombed trees?
As I was driving down the highway today i looked out across an expansive and broad forested plain. I thought that if this area was flooded and subjected to a rapid sedimentation these trees would be buried in place. I realize that this condition is true of a significant parts of the world like the flat land jungles of South America and Africa and the boreal forest of the northern hemisphere. A similar situation occurs when a newly constructed dam floods a forested area the trees will remain rooted for decades maybe longer in cold water allowing for some portion of the trunks to become buried.
So the question I have for the budding Young Earth Geologist why are Polystrata (or is polystrait) fossils only found in isolated regions and appear to be the exception and not the rule? It has been very well established that trees are occasionally buried in the growth and vertical deposited position by everyday natural geological processes such as subsidence, tsunamis, volcanic events, catastrophic failures of ice or land slide dams, river and lake breaches, etc. Search the literature if you disagree.
The over here and other there examples, of vertical tree fossils is exactly what one would expect from a traditional geological view of an old and restless earth.
For some unstated reason the Creationist publications on Polystrata trees (or is polystait) take great pains to show that the roots are not in growth position and that the tree was uprooted and deposited. So big deal! that is what one would expect on occasions.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 16 of 50 (420665)
09-08-2007 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
09-08-2007 11:14 PM


Paper is available

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 09-08-2007 11:14 PM RAZD has replied

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 20 of 50 (420692)
09-09-2007 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by RAZD
09-09-2007 12:27 AM


Re: Paper is available
Robert A. Gastaldo, et al writes:
Several examples exist where individual plants have undergone regeneration following burial (Gastaldo, 1992), and in these cases, helically arranged roots that originated at buried nodes crosscut entombing primary bedding structures (Figure 5A).
These trees were clearly were not buried during a global flood! They show the same character of other polystrate fossils of being vertical through many sedimentation layers. The regeneration of the root growth is clearly visible and we are probably looking at years or decades of sedimentation. The means and methods of trees being buried vertical are many and varied as is expected from an old and active earth.
Reference image is from
Erect Forests Are Evidence for Coseismic Base-level Changes in Pennsylvanian Cyclothems of the Black Warrior Basin, U.S.A.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.
Edited by iceage, : Added reference per mod request - thought it was redundant since this it was referenced in two subsequent posts. Sorry but visual evidence is significant to those less likely to do in depth research. Also the image is also wrapped in html with references at No webpage found at provided URL: http://perlworks.com/geology/regrowth.html

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 28 of 50 (420823)
09-09-2007 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Ihategod
09-09-2007 12:01 PM


Just-so stories
Jar was just being polite.
While creative thinking is certainly of value, you also have to temper the imagination with reality, established facts and reasoning.
What you provided is an unreasoned just-so story without any grounding in the empirical data or other established facts!
I am chuckling slightly, as here is a comment of yours awhile back....
Vashgun writes:
You assume I think like you. I do not. I am much clearer in my reasoning and not weighed down by just-so stories.
While you maybe clearing in your reasoning, I am still reading and trying to digest the prior referenced paper instead of making up just-so stories that are contrived to cohere to some bronze-age religious myths instead of the data.
Vashgun writes:
air was still saturated with higher levels of oxygen
FYI, most plants are harmed by high O2 atmospheric concentrations. Second electromagnetic fields is pure bunk and new-age woo and the past earth magnetic fields can be estimated via the field paleomagnetism.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 31 of 50 (420885)
09-10-2007 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Ihategod
09-10-2007 12:13 AM


Flood Geology == Flat Earth
hewg writes:
I have yet to see any evidence that contradicts that polystrate tree fossils were laid down by rapid sedimentation...
5) Regenerative growth of roots. Looks to me like rapid sedimentation, the evidence from the picture clearly looks (if they are in fact roots) like it branched out in a quick fashion while deposition was occurring.
Did you read the paper provided?
quote:
Neap-spring-neap tidalite patterns indicate that entombment occurred on the order of a few decades, whereas burial of the mire and forest-floor litter happened on the order of weeks, if not days.
I am really beginning to wonder if you are just pull our leg here.
Root growth rate is a known quantity within a certain range. Even with the fastest growing plants, the roots would take weeks, months and maybe seasons to branch out like shown in the pictures.
Just how do envision these roots expanding several different times at several different elevations while being submerged or during a world wide flood? And how do you dismiss the tidalite patterns?
hewg writes:
Then it was stated that geology has no problem with rapid sedimentation as long as we don't invoke a WW flood because it could be caused by local flooding.
Yes yes Geology has absolutely no problem with rapid sedimentation. I have witnessed over 1.5 feet of sedimentation in one dust storm and dozens of feet in land slide event. Floods frequently move large amounts of sediment around and there have been literally millions of major floods over billions of years.
hewg writes:
I tried to point out that if polystrate trees were the only thing holding flood geology back then we had a debate.
Flood geology is not being held back anymore than flat earth geology or earth centered cosmology. They theories are mythic based on data based. They do not fit any of the available evidence and are overwhelmingly falsified by the data.
Flood geology is falsified by dozens and dozens of geological formations. As I have pointed out Angular Unconformities disprove young earth all by themselves.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 35 of 50 (420996)
09-10-2007 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Ihategod
09-10-2007 1:08 PM


Re: starting over? or a review
hewg writes:
perhaps the roots don't grow instantly today. and perhaps they didn't during the flood. I didn't suggest the trees were buried entirely if you read my just-so story, it was eventually buried entirely within a month or so. also, it could be pre-flood rock.
I am beginning to believe you're trolling or are committed to intellectual dishonesty to a degree that I have not witnessed before.
When presented with visual evidence that goes counter to your claims you make the most absurd statements. I have to ask, did you at least peruse the paper provided or just look at the pictures. They provide convincing detailed evidence that this "polystrata" fossil was decades in the making. To suggest electromagnetic influences or imply that root growth can occur radially of several inches and simultaneously at several different elevations during the execution of a global flood is absurd, especially when normal everyday earth processes can account for the evidence very nicely.
I wish the facilities here had a kill file because you would be in it. This is my last response to your nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
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