separation of church and state - a christian perspective please.

It came from one of those guys you assert did not mean to create a separation between church and state. Jefferson described creating a "wall" between church and state.Perhaps instead of rambling about what you think the founding fathers meant, by taking snippets of the Constitution out of context, and applying what the latest evangelicals and hard right conservatives say they meant, and just freakin' read their own writings.You know Jefferson even made his own Bible? Yep, he actually cut up the version you guys use to create his own version. So your idea that he'd be for your religion or iconography of it hanging about govt buildings is just a tad off.And by the way, no one is suggesting that Xian iconography be done away with completely, just not projected at us from govt buildings in a massive wave of historical revision and Constitution burning.Personally I do agree that some complaints against Xian iconography are a bit much. But then again Xians are arguing my iconography showed be wiped from the face of the globe, so turn about's fair play and all. Yes. Those are all blatant attempts to prosyletize and establish a religion. It all depends how they are depicted. It has already been stated why some would be correct and others are not. Perhaps you should read the Supreme Court decision in this case as one of the Justices mentions the oft cited example of Moses and the tablets on display in the Supreme Court itself.If it is part of a historical depiction of laws being made or used, then it makes sense. If it sits as if to say, this is the law you will find within, or an example of the greatest laws ever, then it is prosyletizing and thus along the lines of (respecting) establishing a religion.The Constitution holds for states as well as the federal govt, and having functions or permissions from the state are the same as "making law".I doubt you'd be holding the same position if some county decided to put up giant piss-christ displays or depictions of Moses as a liar and murderer in permanent display on the front of their courthouses.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

So what law did congress make respecting the establishment of a religion?This message has been edited by Tal, 07-06-2005 02:36 PM

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"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.""A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future."
- General George Patton Jr

It was the action of a state judge acting according to his authority granted by the state legislature; this is prohibited by the 1st and 14th amendments.

Tal asks (regarding Ten Commandments Monuments)"So what law did congress make respecting the establishment of a religion?"Tal, I am sure you are aware that the establishment clause has long been held by the SCOTUS to apply to state and local governments as well as Congress itself. Or are you saying that the Ten Commandments are not religious? Otherwise, you are interpreting the clause rather narrowly, imo. The SCOTUS is of course itself conflicted on this. In the recent rulings they seem to be saying, "If the monument has been there for a long time and it seems to have more of a historical and cultural context it is ok but if you are erecting a monument today for the purpose of getting the Ten Commandments into the public space we are going to make you take it down." Actually I think that is a reasonable position to take.

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Tal, I am sure you are aware that the establishment clause has long been held by the SCOTUS to apply to state and local governments as well as Congress itself.

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As a clarification, this is the intended result of the 14th amendment. SCOTUS is not acting arbitrarily in this regard.

You are correct. I should have pointed that out. Thanks.

In addition to my reply to you... #16... you have now received two other replies to this same question.Do you now understand, and will you admit, that a breach of the 1st amendment has occured in the described case?If not, why not?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

No problem -- it wasn't meant as a criticism. I thought a clarification was warranted since many on the right seem to think that the Supreme Court just makes up its rulings on a whim.

"I am the LORD thy God; you shall have no other god before me."

The greatest commandment..(both of them)

Observe the sabbath and keep it holy?

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Ok, what impact does a government have on an individuals way of life? Quite a bit.

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I was under that impression that the Founders wanted as little government intrusion into people's lives as possible, and that is specifically why they recognised and included in the Consitution measures to keep religion out of government and to allow the free exercise of religion among the citizenry.They saw the difficulties and corruption and hypocrisy of the goverment they came from in which there was a state religion that all lawmakers had to be a member of and they made a radical departure from that.

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The conservatives want judges who will not interpret the law but, rather, uphold it.

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It is nothing more than spin to say that conservatives want judges who will "uphold the law, not interpret it".It is impossible to NOT interpret the law. Indeed, if we didn't need to interpret the law, we wouldn't need any judges at all.Conservatives want judges who will interpret the law in the way they want them to.Phatboy, you really have to stop just swallowing everything you read and hear from the conservative Christian propaganda machine.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-07-2005 08:15 AM

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Ok, tell me how the commandments being presented at the front of a courthouse is congress making a law respecting the establishment of a religion and the FREE EXERCISE THEREOF.

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A courthouse is a public building. That means that all of us own it.Nobody has the right to use a publicly funded and maintained facility to promote a particular religion.Would you have been OK with a display of the tenets of Satanism at the courthouse? Or Wicca?

But both of those are relative, the second one specifically so?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion