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Author Topic:   Was there a worldwide flood?
Peg
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 281 of 372 (510956)
06-05-2009 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Theodoric
06-04-2009 4:30 PM


Theodoric writes:

Before addressing this, the issue of whether there was a flood needs to be addressed. Can you provide any evidence of such a phenomenon?

70% of the earth is covered in water
There is more land under the sea then there is above it

is that not evidence of flooding?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Theodoric, posted 06-04-2009 4:30 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by JonF, posted 06-05-2009 8:07 AM Peg has responded
 Message 291 by Theodoric, posted 06-05-2009 8:56 AM Peg has responded
 Message 295 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-05-2009 9:22 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 282 of 372 (510957)
06-05-2009 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Coyote
06-04-2009 5:15 PM


Re: Worldwide flood -- not
Coyote writes:

What we find instead is evidence of continuity across the date ascribed to this flood, about 4,350 years ago. We see continuity of human populations, fauna and flora, sedimentation and the like.

how long would you expect the 'continuity' to be interrupted if there was such a flood?

And what evidence are you using to claim that nothing has interrupted the life of humans and animals in the past 4,000 odd years?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Coyote, posted 06-04-2009 5:15 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Coyote, posted 06-05-2009 3:23 AM Peg has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 284 of 372 (510965)
06-05-2009 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Coyote
06-05-2009 3:23 AM


Re: Worldwide flood -- not
Coyote writes:

the Native American populations I study would have been eliminated, only to be replaced by Noah's relatives and descendants.That destruction and replacement did not occur--rather, we have continuity through time of Native American genotypes and cultures.

When did they arrive in their native lands?

Coyote writes:

Same for fauna and flora. Sediment layers are not interrupted at that time over continental areas by a discontinuity.

This is solid evidence that there was no flood about 4,350 years ago. (That and the fact that geologists have showed the same thing.)

And the evidence? Just one example: we have Native American mtDNA from a couple of sites in excess of 10,000 years of age and the same haplotypes occur among living individuals. That's what I mean by continuity. (And those mtDNA types are different from what is found in the Middle East.)

2 things:
the sediment layers are not always consistent. In view of inconsistencies, how can sedimentary layers be considered 100% accurate?

and there is evidence that the DNA you are talking about is found in all the people around the earth...not only the North Americans. So all that it tells us is that the native americans and all other nations are related to one another so rather then add weight to your argument, all it does is illustrate that the history we find in Genesis highly credible. If the flood wiped out all people except the 3 sons and daughter in laws of Noah, then you would expect that the Native Americans would also have the same dna...and they do.


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 Message 283 by Coyote, posted 06-05-2009 3:23 AM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-05-2009 6:52 AM Peg has responded
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 287 of 372 (510978)
06-05-2009 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Dr Adequate
06-05-2009 6:52 AM


Re: Worldwide flood -- not
DrAdequate writes:

I am curious to know what on earth you can mean by this.

what i mean by it is that sediment layers are not always consistent so using sediment layers as a proof of anything is flawed.
one example is at Africa's Lake Rudolph and the Omo Valley (200kms away) where sediment layers were not consistent with each other. They were dated to the same period, but the pig fossils they found at each location were not the same type of pig fossil.

So what im questioning is how sediment layers can be used so affirmatively when they are not always consistent. Would you use a calculator which occasionally produced an incorrect answer?

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-05-2009 6:52 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by anglagard, posted 06-05-2009 9:04 AM Peg has responded
 Message 294 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-05-2009 9:16 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 296 by Meddle, posted 06-05-2009 9:34 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 297 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-05-2009 9:37 AM Peg has responded
 Message 299 by Coyote, posted 06-05-2009 11:39 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 338 by Blue Jay, posted 06-08-2009 1:34 PM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 359 by roxrkool, posted 06-10-2009 3:36 PM Peg has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 288 of 372 (510979)
06-05-2009 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by JonF
06-05-2009 8:07 AM


I disagree
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Huntard, posted 06-05-2009 8:44 AM Peg has not yet responded
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 302 of 372 (511056)
06-05-2009 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by anglagard
06-05-2009 9:04 AM


Re: Worldwide flood -- not
anglagard writes:

Well, did it ever occur to you or your uncited 'source' that there were different species of the same date 200km away in a different type of sediment because they represent a different environment? Is the world today all desert or all river estuary?

That is an unproved conjecture...yes, they can explain the contradictory evidence that way, but without proof the obvious inconsistency in sedimentary layers remain. And further, if the environment can be so different over the short distance of 200kms, then trying to prove anything with sediment layers is just plain stupid.

there is no place on the earth where a complete record of the rocks is present. Some areas have been getting heavy deposition of sediment for millions of years, and other areas have been getting worn down thru erosion for long periods of time so the geologic column relies heavily on guesswork and hypotheticals rather then anything solid.


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 303 of 372 (511058)
06-05-2009 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by anglagard
06-05-2009 8:46 AM


Re: Worldwide flood -- not
anglagard writes:

Sediment layers are always consistent with the laws of physics, chemistry, and geology. If you can show just one counterexample, then please feel free to elaborate as there would be a Nobel prize waiting.

well the sediments are not consistent in the case of the Omo valley and Lake Rudolph. Even though the fragments Richard Leakey found were dated to 2.5 million years old, the skull was the same shape as modern man. He said that other bone fragments that were found such as the leg specimens were indistinguishable from the same bones of modern men.

but they were still dated to be 2.5 million years old.

anglagard writes:

What is not consistent is the concept that evolution never occurred in the past or at present, except right after those 'kinds' super-evolved at a super-dooper rate right after any flood when housecats gave birth to lions.

fossils appear suddenly in the geologic record, not gradually as evolutution theorizes. Immediately above the lifeless sediments of the Azoic era, the Cambrian layers carrie an abundance of fossil crustaceans and shellfish, in great variety, already fully developed.

Same goes for plant life....plants with woody stems appear suddenly in the mid-Paleozoic but not before.

the rest of your rant needs no response.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by bluescat48, posted 06-05-2009 11:54 PM Peg has responded
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 305 of 372 (511062)
06-05-2009 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Theodoric
06-05-2009 8:56 AM


Theodoric writes:

No it isn't.

Care to explain why it would be?

Because it is a fact that the oceans were much lower then they are know as is seen by the river channels that go deep into the ocean.

there are huge land ridges that connect the continents which were at one time above the ocean and are now beneath it

there is ten times as much water by volume in the ocean as there is land above sea level

there are fossil remains of many different animals, such as lions, tigers, bears, and elk, together in common strata, which may indicate that all of these were destroyed simultaneously.

There are whole frozen mammoths coming out of the ice right now with undigested food in their stomachs which shows they died suddenly which points to a sudden catastrophic event

Im convinced that this is evidence of a great flood. Call me stupid or whatever, but the fact is that this phenomenon is visible all over the earth and it convinces me that something catastrophic must have happened. Yes, I'm simple I know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Theodoric, posted 06-05-2009 8:56 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by bluescat48, posted 06-06-2009 12:16 AM Peg has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 308 of 372 (511065)
06-06-2009 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by bluescat48
06-05-2009 11:54 PM


Re: Worldwide flood -- not
here is a link to the article

Lake Rudolph Skull Fragments

Edited by Admin, : Shorten long link.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-06-2009 12:39 AM Peg has responded
 Message 313 by Coyote, posted 06-06-2009 12:44 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 335 by RAZD, posted 06-07-2009 10:30 PM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 336 by Theodoric, posted 06-07-2009 10:47 PM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 337 by Theodoric, posted 06-07-2009 11:01 PM Peg has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 309 of 372 (511067)
06-06-2009 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by Dr Adequate
06-05-2009 9:37 AM


Re: Worldwide flood -- not
DrAdequate writes:

So if having different pigs in different places at the same time is an argument against real geology, why isn't having different pigs in different places an argument against flood geology, which claims that all fossils were laid down at the same time?

the argument has been about the supposed 'consistency' of sedimentary layers in the geologic column

they are obviously not consistent as the pigs show...not only the pig fossils but also the human fossils.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-05-2009 9:37 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-06-2009 12:44 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 311 of 372 (511069)
06-06-2009 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by Percy
06-05-2009 9:00 AM


Percy writes:

You disagree? So you're saying that the fact that 70% of the earth's surface is covered by water is evidence that the remaining 30% was also covered by water at one time? Why? Is there something about 70% in particular? If water only covered 60% of the earth, would that be sufficient evidence of flooding of the remaining portion? Of is the threshold some other number, maybe 50% or 40%? Or is it the mere presence of any amount of the earth's surface covered by water that provides sufficient evidence of flooding of the rest of it?

if you came upon a city that was covered by 70% water, would you deny that it had been flooded?

Recently we had 1/3 of the state of Queensland covered by water...it was flooded...higher areas were unaffected but lower areas were definately flooded. If the floodwaters remain and I was to visit in 10 years time having never known the place before, i would probably not think it was flooded.

It doesnt mean that its not flooded though. Same goes for the earth. Just because we were not around when the oceans were lower, does not mean that the earth is not flooded now. When the evidence is that the oceans were at one time much lower, then the only logical conclusion is that it must now be flooded.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Percy, posted 06-05-2009 9:00 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-06-2009 12:46 AM Peg has responded
 Message 319 by bluescat48, posted 06-06-2009 12:57 AM Peg has responded
 Message 331 by Percy, posted 06-06-2009 7:30 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 315 of 372 (511073)
06-06-2009 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by Dr Adequate
06-06-2009 12:39 AM


Re: Worldwide flood -- not
"Unresolved is the relationship of the new find to Homo Habilis who's bone fragments were found in Olduvial Gorge 500 miles south of Lake Rudolf in a layer 1.75 million years old. The hand bones of this species suggested a dexterity approaching that of modern man and Dr Clarke suspects the new find may be an earlier form of homo habilis. However the brain chamber of this only measured 656 cubic centermeters compared to Mr Leakeys estimate of 800 for the newly peiced together skull"

So how can a 1.75 million year old fossil resemble modern man?


This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 316 of 372 (511074)
06-06-2009 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Dr Adequate
06-06-2009 12:46 AM


we know that aint gonna happen
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 320 of 372 (511078)
06-06-2009 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by bluescat48
06-06-2009 12:16 AM


bluescat48 writes:

Catastrophe yes but still not evidence of a global flood. How about freezing to death at the beginning of an ice age?

why would a wholly mammoth freeze to death....they had fur

Penguins and polar bares, snow fox's and rabbits survive in the arctic...why would a whooly mammoth not survive?

If they didnt like the cold, why not migrate to warmer climates?


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 Message 306 by bluescat48, posted 06-06-2009 12:16 AM bluescat48 has responded

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Peg
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 325 of 372 (511083)
06-06-2009 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by bluescat48
06-06-2009 12:57 AM


bluescat48 writes:

Which shows only that there is such things as localized flooding. Flooding is very common in many areas of this planet.

Yes it is.

But when you look at geological features that have been paved by water such as the Grand Canyon, or The Blue Mountains (aust)

Or underwater reefs such as the one found in the Australian desert areas such as the Flinders Ranges Oodnaminta Reef

or the flat topped seamounts deep below the waters surface with evidence of having once been above the surface

its not hard to believe that there really was an earthwide flood


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