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Author Topic:   Was there a worldwide flood?
pandion
Member (Idle past 1291 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 340 of 372 (511270)
06-08-2009 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Blue Jay
06-08-2009 1:34 PM


Re: Genetics and Pigs
Bluejay writes:

I can probably find fifty species of spider in a 10-acre field. Does this mean that different parts of the field are currently in different periods of time.


African pigs are not spiders. African pigs tend to wander farther and faster. Please refer to post 301. Pig fossils were indeed how the problem with the dating of the KBS tuff was brought to light. They also helped in identifying the same strata across some distance. As noted, African pigs are quite useful as index fossils. As suggested, read "Bones of Contention" by Roger Lewin. While most of what Peg has to say is worth a chuckle, in this one case she is spot on - east African pig fossils are excellent index fossils.

Edited by pandion, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Blue Jay, posted 06-08-2009 1:34 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by Blue Jay, posted 06-08-2009 11:34 PM pandion has responded

pandion
Member (Idle past 1291 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 345 of 372 (511299)
06-09-2009 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by Blue Jay
06-08-2009 11:34 PM


Re: Genetics and Pigs
Bluejay writes:

The point wasn't that pigs aren't useful index fossils, or even that Peg's example is invalid: the point was that Peg is failing to actually present the argument.


That would be really nice if that were how you presented the argument. In fact, you challenged Peg's assertion that pig fossils are, in fact, quite useful as index fossils over vast areas in east Africa. Moreover, you based that on the fact that many species of spiders can be found in a relatively small area. Don't you really understand how irrelevant your analogy is? The point is, in fact, that Peg's assertion is correct. The point is not whether she failed to present a valid argument. In fact, she did. The point is that you challenged her assertion reference to pig fossils with an irrelevant reference to spiders. In fact, the dating of the KBS tuff was rejected because the pig fossils were not the same type.

As I said, Peg gets very few points right. But in this case she did. And you decided to argue and present a totally irrelevant metaphor.

P.S. Spiders regularly cross entire oceans by ballooning on threads of silk, and thereby colonized the Pacific Islands. Can pigs do that?

My inclination would to have left a gross error alone. Do I need to explain why this little tidbit is just so much defensive fluff?

Edited by pandion, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Blue Jay, posted 06-08-2009 11:34 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by bluescat48, posted 06-09-2009 5:52 AM pandion has not yet responded
 Message 347 by JonF, posted 06-09-2009 7:40 AM pandion has responded
 Message 349 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-09-2009 12:57 PM pandion has responded
 Message 350 by Blue Jay, posted 06-09-2009 2:17 PM pandion has not yet responded

pandion
Member (Idle past 1291 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 348 of 372 (511326)
06-09-2009 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by JonF
06-09-2009 7:40 AM


Re: Genetics and Pigs
I think it's more accurate to say the the original dating of the KBS Tuff was questioned because of pig fossils, and ultimately rejected because scientists figured out what went wrong.

OK. I can accept that. In fact, in a previous post I stated it more that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by JonF, posted 06-09-2009 7:40 AM JonF has not yet responded

pandion
Member (Idle past 1291 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 351 of 372 (511439)
06-09-2009 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by Dr Adequate
06-09-2009 12:57 PM


Re: Genetics and Pigs
Dr Adequate writes:

That is not, in fact, what Peg asserted. Indeed, part of the YEC dogma is to deny that index fossils are useful in any way whatsoever.

If you can get Peg to assert that any fossils are useful as index fossils, I shall award you the Dr Adequate Prize For Talking Sense Into Creationists.


You're right. I stand corrected. I was working from the quote cited by Bluejay. I assumed (probably incorrectly) that Peg understood the importance of the pig fossils. So I was probably a bit harsh. Nevertheless, the spider analogy is still bad. It was a comparison of the vertebrate fossils, especially the pigs, at Koobi Fora and Omo that caused researchers to doubt the original date of the KBS Tuff. That is because similar fossils are found in strata of like age over a wide area in east Africa.

Edited by pandion, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-09-2009 12:57 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-09-2009 7:19 PM pandion has responded

pandion
Member (Idle past 1291 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 353 of 372 (511482)
06-10-2009 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by Dr Adequate
06-09-2009 7:19 PM


Re: Genetics and Pigs
Dr Adequate writes:

No, not really. Peg's sole point, if it can be dignified with that name, was that the existence of different pigs in different places at the same time somehow invalidates geology.

So the observation that different species in the same taxon do, right now, live in different places at the same time, is indeed sufficient to refute her argument.

If she had a more subtle point in mind (which she didn't) then she has relinquished her chance to make it.


Well then, I must owe Bluejay an apology, which I now offer. I sincerely hope that I caused no offense.

I mistakenly believed that Peg was discussing the problems with the dating of the KBS Tuff and how the fossil suites found at the various sites first indicated that the KBS Tuff had been misdated. I realize that I was wrong, i.e., that was not what Peg was saying. I have reviewed the entire discussion rather than the single quote upon which I based my remarks. From that discussion it is clear that Peg does not actually understand the whole point about pig fossils and the KBS Tuff.

That's what I get for commenting without reading the history.

Again, sorry, Bluejay.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-09-2009 7:19 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

pandion
Member (Idle past 1291 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 357 of 372 (511549)
06-10-2009 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by Peg
06-10-2009 4:47 AM


Re: Genetics and Pigs
Peg writes:

I questioned using the sediment layers as a marker because as is seen in the layers of sediment from the Omo and Lake Rudolf areas, they are not always consistent with each other.


But they are. Perhaps your source is just horribly outdated. Another possibility is that your source lied to you. Once the strata were correctly identified they were found to be perfectly consistent.

In the example i gave, the pigs are in the same sediment layer, are dated to the same time but are a different types of pig.

Incorrect. Once the layers were correctly identified it was found that the fossil suites found in various locations were almost identical. In other words, the pig fossils (and others) in any stratum are the same. That means different types of pig = different strata. It's actually a pretty simple idea.

Why don't you get the correct information. Bones of Contention by Roger Lewin has already been mentioned (The University of Chicago Press, 1987. ISBN 0226476510) Perhaps your confusion would be cleared up by a reading of the actual facts.

Edited by pandion, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Peg, posted 06-10-2009 4:47 AM Peg has not yet responded

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