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Author Topic:   101 evidences for a young age...
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3417 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 61 of 135 (514224)
07-05-2009 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Dr Adequate
07-05-2009 1:39 AM


Re: Ancient paleontology
You are referring to more recent and better documented cases of fossils. They are good examples of how people use the fossils to make up myths. Do you have anything on ancient Greeks or Chinese finding these fossils. I believe that the island of Samos? is known for having fossils appear after erosive events and it is theorized that it was a source for the Greek temple fossils. Possibly even the drawing on the vase. Wasn't Crete a source of mammoth bones and that is why the Oddessey locates the cyclops there? Have you documented those sources? No, I didn't know about the ammonites. Carving snake heads on them is a hoot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-05-2009 1:39 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 62 of 135 (514227)
07-05-2009 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by greentwiga
07-05-2009 2:22 AM


Re: Ancient paleontology
You are referring to more recent and better documented cases of fossils. They are good examples of how people use the fossils to make up myths.
But they aren't --- they're examples of people using fossils to confirm myths that they already had, as I emphasized. It is hard to find cases where we can definitely say that a fossil find was the origin of a myth.
Do you have anything on ancient Greeks or Chinese finding these fossils. I believe that the island of Samos? is known for having fossils appear after erosive events and it is theorized that it was a source for the Greek temple fossils. Possibly even the drawing on the vase. Wasn't Crete a source of mammoth bones and that is why the Oddessey locates the cyclops there? Have you documented those sources?
They weren't mammoths (as RAZD said) but pygmy elephants.
No, sadly, there are no Greek sources that give us enough information to definitely say that the cyclopeans were based on elephant skulls or griffins on Protoceratops.
If you look on Google, you will find people saying that there are such sources --- for example, the name of Empedocles seems to have gotten attached to the elephant-cyclops link. In the same way, you find people saying that the Greek authors reported griffins in the Gobi (where Protoceratops fossils are found) on the say-so of the Scythians (whose territory may have extended to the Gobi depending on what you mean by "Scythians"). But this all seems to be the purest rubbish, produced by people playing the game that Americans call "Telephone" and I would call "Chinese Whispers". I have been able to find no Classical sources that would make these conjectures more than just interesting conjectures.
In the case of the griffins, the Greek sources agree that the Scythians said that there were griffins in the extreme north of Europe, and not in the Gobi desert as the griffin-Protoceratops hypothesis would require. To that extent the Classical sources actually cast doubt on the hypothesis.
---
As for the Chinese, we can certainly find them identifying what we now know as dinosaur bones as being "dragon bones", but which came first, the bones or the Chinese dragon myth? A definite answer is lost, like so much else, in the mists of antiquity.
---
I had better write that article. It seems it will have at least one interested reader.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 63 of 135 (514251)
07-05-2009 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dr Adequate
07-05-2009 3:35 AM


Re: Ancient paleontology
woops
They weren't mammoths (as RAZD said) but pygmy elephants.
Actually should have been mastodons in macedonia, curiously not pygmy.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 725 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 64 of 135 (514252)
07-05-2009 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dr Adequate
07-05-2009 3:35 AM


Re: Ancient paleontology
It seems it will have at least one interested reader.
Minimum of two, Doc. And I'm going after that book, too.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 65 of 135 (514266)
07-05-2009 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dr Adequate
07-05-2009 3:35 AM


Re: Ancient paleontology - quibbles
Hi Dr Adequate
In the same way, you find people saying that the Greek authors reported griffins in the Gobi (where Protoceratops fossils are found) on the say-so of the Scythians (whose territory may have extended to the Gobi depending on what you mean by "Scythians"). But this all seems to be the purest rubbish, produced by people playing the game that Americans call "Telephone" and I would call "Chinese Whispers".
Curiously, one of the beliefs associated with Griffins is that they hoarded gold, and Mayor has a map on page 28 showing the juxtapositions of gold digs and protoceratops\dinosaur bones found lying on the ground, along ancient trade routes, so "purest rubbish" seems to be supported by some actual evidence. The area in question covers from the hindu kush into kazakhstan, mongolia and china.
... the Greek sources agree that the Scythians said that there were griffins in the extreme north of Europe, ...
Curiously you seem to now imply that the range of the Scythians extended into northern europe where previously you doubt they extend to mongolia? As far as the "say-so of the Scythians" is concerned, there does not seem to be that much available:
from the book,
quote:
p26: The territory of the Issedonian Scythians where Aristeas learned about the griffin in about 675 B.C. is a wedge bounded by the Ien Shan and Altai ranges, in an area that straddles present-day northwestern Mongolia, northwestern China, southern Siberia, and southeastern Kazakhstan. ...
p27: The nomads left no written records. Even Aristeas's poem itself no longer exists, but his epic was so famous in antiquity that quotations from it are preserved in works by several ancient authors. Those authors also refer to other, now lost, works of Greco-Roman writers who collected information about Scythia, gold, minimg, and griffins. So, in piecing together the natural history of the griffin of Scythian lore, we must rely on terse, fragmentary passages that derive from a much fuller and richer tradition.
But they aren't --- they're examples of people using fossils to confirm myths that they already had, as I emphasized. It is hard to find cases where we can definitely say that a fossil find was the origin of a myth.
As for the Chinese, we can certainly find them identifying what we now know as dinosaur bones as being "dragon bones", but which came first, the bones or the Chinese dragon myth? A definite answer is lost, like so much else, in the mists of antiquity.
I don't think there would be such a recording for any such find, because such finds likely pre-date writing, and the interpretations are likely lost in time.
I had better write that article. It seems it will have at least one interested reader.
You would likely have several. Certainly I would like to see your substantiations and evidence, and how many myths and legends you can find such explanations of.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-05-2009 3:35 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 979 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 66 of 135 (514268)
07-05-2009 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by RAZD
07-05-2009 3:20 PM


Re: Ancient paleontology - quibbles
Curiously, one of the beliefs associated with Griffins is that they hoarded gold, and Mayor has a map on page 28 showing the juxtapositions of gold digs and protoceratops\dinosaur bones found lying on the ground, along ancient trade routes, so "purest rubbish" seems to be supported by some actual evidence. The area in question covers from the hindu kush into kazakhstan, mongolia and china.
I'm curious... what does the author mean by "gold digs?"
Does he/she mention the type of rocks?
And what is the connection between these digs/bone deposits and the trade routes? I'd actually like to see the dataset, that would be really interesting. But I'm always skeptical of these sorts of associations until I can see the raw dataset and make my own maps.
Dinosaur fossils are often found in sedimentary rocks and gold can occur as placer deposits, typically as a result of fluvial processes. That's the sort of connection that could make sense, particularly if these protoceratops were excavated from fluvial deposits. The same sorts of processes that concentrate gold, could possibly localize dino bodies during a rainy/wet season.
Okay, I'm heading to the bookstore NOW!

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 135 (514282)
07-05-2009 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by RAZD
07-04-2009 5:09 PM


Re: Ancient paleontology
The cyclops myth can be explained by the mastodon skeletons, where the actual eye sockets are very small, and the large opening for the trunk was seen as the location for the eye.
Wow, now that I think about it that makes a lot of sense. But you know, there really is an extremely rare deformity aptly named Cyclopia that causes the eyes to fuse in to one large one. Perhaps this coupled with Mastodon skeletons allowed for it to pass in to their folklore more easily.

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 68 of 135 (514302)
07-06-2009 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by RAZD
07-05-2009 3:20 PM


Re: Ancient paleontology - quibbles
Curiously, one of the beliefs associated with Griffins is that they hoarded gold, and Mayor has a map on page 28 showing the juxtapositions of gold digs and protoceratops\dinosaur bones found lying on the ground, along ancient trade routes, so "purest rubbish" seems to be supported by some actual evidence.
What I describe as "purest rubbish" is people saying that the Greek authors give us solid testimony for the griffin-Protocertops connection.
Curiously you seem to now imply that the range of the Scythians extended into northern europe ...
No, that's not what I mean to imply. Just because the Scythians reported that there were griffins up there doesn't mean that the Scythians lived up there. According to Herodotus:
Of these too, then, we have knowledge; but as for what is north of them, it is from the Issedones that the tale comes of the one-eyed men and the griffins that guard gold; this is told by the Skythians, who have heard it from them; and we have taken it as true from the Skythians.
So you see, according to the Greeks the Scythians weren't claiming to have griffins in their territory, but to have heard about them from their neighbors the Issedones, who didn't claim to have griffins in their territory.
Was this to the east or the north? Well, again according to Herodotus:
But in the north of Europe there is by far the most gold. In this matter again I cannot say with assurance how the gold is produced, but it is said that one-eyed men called Arimaspoi steal it from griffins.
So he's clearly locating the griffins in the north of Europe, which is one of the many places where the Gobi desert isn't --- and outside Scythian territory.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4949 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 69 of 135 (514316)
07-06-2009 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Dr Adequate
07-05-2009 1:39 AM


Plot's drawing
The illustration in your post looked familiar to me I knew I had seen it somewhere, and now I remember!
It was in the article:
The Earliest Discoveries of Dinosaurs
Justin B. Delair and William A. S. Sarjeant
Source: Isis, Vol. 66, No. 1 (Mar., 1975), pp. 5-25
Published by: The University of Chicago Press on behalf of The History of Science Society
In this article, there is the same illustration that you posted and a little quote from Plot:
I have one dug out of a quarry in the Parish of Cornwell, and given me by the ingenious Sir Thomas Pennyston, that has exactly the Figure of the lowermost part of the Thigh-Bone of a Man or at least of some other Animal, with capita Femoris inferiora, between which are the anterior (hid behind the sculpture) and the large posterior Sinus (the seat of the strong Ligament that rises out of the Thigh, and that gives safe passage to the Vessels descending into the Leg): and a little above the Sinus, where it seems to have been broken off, shewing the marrow within of a shining Spar-like Substance of its true Colour and Figure, in the hollow of the Bone, as in Tab. 8 Fig. 4. In Compass near the capita Femoris, just two Foot, and at the top above the Sinus (where the Thigh-Bone is as small as any where) about 15 inches: in weight, though representing so short a part of the Thigh-Bone, almost 20 pounds.
I have the article by Delair and Sarjeant in PDF file is anyone wants a copy just email me bj25 at le.ac.uk and I'll relpy with attached file asap.

This message is a reply to:
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wirkkalaj
Member (Idle past 5324 days)
Posts: 22
From: Fernley
Joined: 07-03-2009


Message 70 of 135 (518131)
08-04-2009 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Brian
07-03-2009 3:55 PM


Re: Such as?
Sorry it's taken so long for me to reply. This site http://s8int.com/dinolit1.html has enormous amounts of artifacts and drawings and such.

This message is a reply to:
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wirkkalaj
Member (Idle past 5324 days)
Posts: 22
From: Fernley
Joined: 07-03-2009


Message 71 of 135 (518132)
08-04-2009 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Coyote
07-03-2009 6:30 PM


Re: Dinosaurs cavorting with humans
This page is about Dinosaurs in Literature, History and Art http://s8int.com/dinolit1.html
This page is about Dinosaurs in the 20th Century
http://s8int.com/dino1.html
Check em out. I would concede that there might not be indisputable evidence about man and dino's co-existing, but there is a lot of it.

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wirkkalaj
Member (Idle past 5324 days)
Posts: 22
From: Fernley
Joined: 07-03-2009


Message 72 of 135 (518135)
08-04-2009 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by roxrkool
07-03-2009 6:25 PM


How likely?
I'm not sure of your point here? I would say that it would be very unlikely, which is why I say. I highly doubt that ancient people had an Archeology team that went out and dug up bones and reassembled them as we do. So how could they have drawings, statues and other artifacts that (in many cases) look just like dinosaurs if they never saw them?
http://s8int.com/dinolit1.html

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wirkkalaj
Member (Idle past 5324 days)
Posts: 22
From: Fernley
Joined: 07-03-2009


Message 73 of 135 (518136)
08-04-2009 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dr Adequate
07-03-2009 8:30 PM


Dinosaur Depictions
The 'stones of Ica'
Mesopotamian Cylinder Seal from approximately 3300 B.C.
This dinosaur petroglyph can be found at Natural Bridges, National Monument Utah
This one can be found in Angkor-wat is in northwest Cambodia.The construction of the temple took place in the first half of the 12th century
There are thousands more here:
http://s8int.com/dinolit1.html

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wirkkalaj
Member (Idle past 5324 days)
Posts: 22
From: Fernley
Joined: 07-03-2009


Message 74 of 135 (518138)
08-04-2009 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by anglagard
07-04-2009 7:25 AM


Re: Saddle up yer Tricerotops Pardner
Well here's some more examples then:
dragons of Chinese mythology
These fossils of Chinese mythology were found around Xingyi city in Guizhou province.
The piece is made of metal and is from Nepal, Himalayas, 10th century.
The famous temple of Muktinath

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wirkkalaj
Member (Idle past 5324 days)
Posts: 22
From: Fernley
Joined: 07-03-2009


Message 75 of 135 (518142)
08-04-2009 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by RAZD
07-04-2009 5:01 PM


Re: reasonable interpretations and reality
See messages 73 and 74 and tell me if I am misrinterpreting these depictions and let me know which ones are fraud.
EvC Forum: 101 evidences for a young age...
Regardless, a few examples of fraud do nothing to discredit my argument as a whole. Evolutionists have had their own cases of fraud. The infamous Piltdown controversy. It doesn't mean that all other primate fossils are hoaxed. Perhaps just willfully or unknowingly misinterpreted.
There are many such legends of fantastic beasties and creatures, and not to difficult to think that many are based on primitive interpretations of fossils, and not of living animals.
Given the fact that most culture's around the world have dragon legends or dinosaur depictions. I would consider it too unlikely that each independent culture interpreted them from fossils. It is not very common to find dinosaur bones just lying about on the ground. You usually have to dig for them.
There are no "depictions of dinosaurs" that represent any recognizable species of dinosaurs with the clarity and detail in those cave paintings.
See 73 and 74. I can produce more examples if these aren't satisfactory.
No it doesn't. It does not contradict in any way the fact that no dinosaur fossils (other than birds) have been found after the 65 million year mass-extinction.
Yeah, assuming the dates they give are accurate. I tend to agree with The Dating Game and I simply don't put much emphasis on most dating methods. The age of the Earth, the age of the Mass-Extinction and so many other things, which were taught as fact and as indiputable, have changed so many times from when I was a kid, I just don't consider them fact anymore.
EvC Forum: The dating game
or
http://www.answersingenesis.org/...-radiometric-dating-prove
If you want to investigate the evidence of an old earth, see Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 and note that it is not just the evidence of an old earth, but the correlations between the different methods and systems
Well, then you have to note all of these correlating methods as well.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/.../topic/young-age-evidence

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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