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Author Topic:   Logic
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 37 of 110 (253309)
10-20-2005 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by mike the wiz
10-20-2005 9:21 AM


Re: SHRAFF HELP
" If there are a hundred earthquakes, my city will fall "..
Is this a tatutology because of the accurate inference? Or is it just a vacuous statement? Or both?
It really isn't a logic question at all. What it says depends on a lot of extra-logical assumptions about earthquakes, their severity, the location of the city relative to the earthquake area, etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 9:21 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 10:41 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 42 of 110 (253346)
10-20-2005 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by mike the wiz
10-20-2005 10:41 AM


Re: SHRAFF HELP
It either is raining outside or isn't.
Logically okay, but pointless.
I'll disagree with you there. It might not be pointless.
Okay, it is pointless in your post, because it is disconnected from everything else. Let me try an example that I once saw. This is from a time before the feminist movement.
  1. A woman is either attractive or unattractive;
  2. If a woman is attractive, a university education is superfluous;
  3. If a woman is unattractive, a university education is inadequate;
  4. Therefore, for a woman, a university education is either superfluous or indadequate.
Here, premise (1) is analogous to your assertion about raining.
In the argument above, the logic is impeccable. Therefore, if there is a problem with the conclusion, then the problem must be one of the premises.
A statement such as "It either is raining outside or isn't." is often used in a syllogism, precisely so that an argument can be given with impeccable logic. But that initial premise is still subject to challenge, so it is not pointless. Rather, it serves the role of separating the logic from the non-logical assumptions being made about the real world.
What I need to know, is the opposite of a contradiction. Does the "or" in raining outside show this? Surely it would be an "and" in the sense that two opposites are possible.
Here I take you as using "opposite" as an ordinary natural language term (with all the vagueness that implies), rather than as a precise logical term. My answer would be that the opposite is a truism or tautology -- something that is always true just due to the nature of the wording.
For example
" Pies are tastey and not tastey " is a true statement, in that, many people find them tastey, and many don't. Is this the opposite of a contradiction?
If we were to treat that as a purely logical statement, without regard to the real world meaning of the terms, then it has the form of a contradiction. The statement "pies are tasty or not tasty" has the form of a truism.
Your example has the form of a contradiction, yet it is not a contradiction (as you explain). What this illustrates is that natural language is not strictly logical. And that's part of why logic puzzles can be a lot of fun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 10:41 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 12:32 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 57 of 110 (253428)
10-20-2005 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by mike the wiz
10-20-2005 12:32 PM


Re: SHRAFF HELP
Is this then, a tautology; If not, could you give me some simple examples. I think if I saw examples, I would know easily, for sure.
In order to get a good public health service, we need a competent man/woman incharge
No, that's not a tautology. One common definition is that a statement is a tautology if it is true in every possible world. Since I can imagine possible worlds where there is good public health service, but nobody is in charge, your statement doesn't qualify.

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 Message 43 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 12:32 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 58 of 110 (253429)
10-20-2005 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by mike the wiz
10-20-2005 12:44 PM


Re: My attempted tautologies
The new mayor will be male or female
Not a tautology. There are possible worlds where there are more than two sexes.
The new hospital will be succesful or not
Yes, that's a tautology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 12:44 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-20-2005 11:59 PM nwr has replied
 Message 77 by Omnivorous, posted 10-21-2005 11:03 AM nwr has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 59 of 110 (253432)
10-20-2005 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by mike the wiz
10-20-2005 1:13 PM


Re: Logic can be moot itself
Begging the question is also known as petitio principii, and is related to the fallacy known as circular argument
There was a math text - unfortunately I have forgotten which - where
if you looked up "begging the question" in the index, it said: see circular reasoning;
if you looked up "circular reasoning" it said: see petitio principii;
and if you looked up "petitio principii" it said: see begging the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 1:13 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 2:59 PM nwr has not replied
 Message 64 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-20-2005 11:59 PM nwr has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 65 of 110 (253577)
10-21-2005 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by macaroniandcheese
10-20-2005 11:59 PM


Re: My attempted tautologies
guh. please. only two sexes. immaterial of what your brain thinks, you either have txx or you have xy... or you have xxy which defaults female. period.
It's a lot more complicated with plants and insects, where there can be haploid individuals (only one set of chromosomes). There isn't any obvious reason that there could not be a world with a different sexual arrangement than we have in our world.
gender is entirely different.
Right. It is a grammatical term, and technically has nothing to do with biology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-20-2005 11:59 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-21-2005 1:09 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 67 of 110 (253585)
10-21-2005 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by macaroniandcheese
10-21-2005 1:09 AM


Re: My attempted tautologies
we are the diploid cycle of our more important haploid gametes.
It's not up to us to decide which is more important. You need both parts of the cycle for it to all work.
In any case, there isn't an obvious reason that you couldn't have a system with three sets of chromosomes, and three sexes. We just don't happen to have that on this planet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-21-2005 1:09 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-21-2005 11:57 AM nwr has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 107 of 110 (257157)
11-05-2005 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by mike the wiz
11-05-2005 7:28 PM


Re: New fallacy?
There is a husband and wife. The wife buys a cat, thus it is her responsibility.
Thus the wife says, "I am going to bed now, don't forget to put the cat out".
Infact, she should have put the cat out and then went to bed, as the cat isn't
the husband's responsibility, and he advised against getting a cat.
This isn't a logical fallacy. It's just a fact about married life

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by mike the wiz, posted 11-05-2005 7:28 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by mike the wiz, posted 11-05-2005 8:17 PM nwr has not replied
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