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Author Topic:   anti-abortion folks still get abortions
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 31 of 301 (298022)
03-25-2006 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by riVeRraT
03-25-2006 7:08 AM


Re: Content, not looks or probable politics!
quote:
There is no strength in trying to make a group of people look like hypocrites. You willl only succeed in making them look like hypocrites, not actually make a logical arguement for what you stand for.
The point is to show that the choice to have an abortion or not is a personal, individual choice, and that even those who seem to believe with all their hearts that abortion is murder and should be illegal still avail themselves of a safe, legal abortion when they have determined that they really need one.
These people have no problem judging other people and feeling morally superior to them, but they suddenly have to construct a different moral standard for themselves when their own circumstances force them to have to confront the situation themselves.
The point was to show the logical disconnet; that they believe that their abortion is the "only moral abortion", that somehow they can convince themselves their circumstances are completely different from every other woman's in the world.
That is incredibly powerful, and uncovers a great truth about at least some in the anti-choice movement.
quote:
Most of these people who are for abortion, should be helping the world not have unwanted pregnancies, but you don't see that.
What are you talking about???
All pro-choice organizations I have ever heard of or been involved with are also strong advocates of contraception, sexual health and responsibility education, family planning services, women's social and economic empowerment, enforcement of child care laws, and domestic violence education.
It is the anti-choice people who want to keep young people ignorant of sexual health and contraception, limit family planning services as much as they can, make contraception harder to get (even wanting to allow pharmacists to not dispense prescriptions for contraception), etc.
What kind of la-la land do you live in that you don't see that this is the case?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by riVeRraT, posted 03-25-2006 7:08 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by redseal, posted 03-25-2006 6:55 PM nator has replied
 Message 43 by riVeRraT, posted 03-25-2006 10:48 PM nator has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 32 of 301 (298024)
03-25-2006 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by riVeRraT
03-25-2006 7:08 AM


Re: Content, not looks or probable politics!
quote:
She's trying to say here, look, look! The anti-abortionists are getting abortions! It must be ok then, and they are lying!!
The standard line of the anti-abortionists is to equate abortion to murdering a child.
Thus if they get or even sanction an abortion in anything other than an extreme case they are either admitting that abortion is not the same as murdering a child - or that they consider murdering children to be roughly on a par with speeding or parking offences - certainly not the horrifying crime most of us would see it as.
Which do you consider the more charitable reading ?t

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by riVeRraT, posted 03-25-2006 7:08 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by riVeRraT, posted 03-25-2006 10:50 PM PaulK has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 33 of 301 (298035)
03-25-2006 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by riVeRraT
03-25-2006 7:08 AM


Re: Content, not looks or probable politics!
Most of these people who are for abortion, should be helping the world not have unwanted pregnancies, but you don't see that.
No, actually the opposite is true. Pro-choice organizations continually and vocally lobby for improved access to birth control, sexual education, and other means that have a proven effectiveness in preventing unwanted pregnancy and the spread of STD's.
On the other hand, not a single anti-abortion organization has come out in favor of birth control. Not a single one. Absolutely none of these organizations have lifted a finger in support of birth control, not ever.
It's the anti-abortion crowd that does absolutely nothing at all to prevent unwanted pregnancy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by riVeRraT, posted 03-25-2006 7:08 AM riVeRraT has not replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 301 (298038)
03-25-2006 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by riVeRraT
03-25-2006 6:54 AM


Re: rat, stop.
Someone accused me of having an agenda, without any proof, or explaining why. Isn't that against forum rules?
The first mention of the word "agenda" in this thread occurred in Message 16, where you wrote "She has an agenda, I try not to."
The second mention was by Funkaloyd in Message 17, where he wrote "If that's an agenda, then you have one too, and you're not trying very hard not to." He is not accusing you of having an agenda. He is questioning your use of "agenda" in Message 16.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by riVeRraT, posted 03-25-2006 6:54 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by riVeRraT, posted 03-25-2006 10:52 PM AdminNWR has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 35 of 301 (298041)
03-25-2006 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by nator
03-25-2006 8:39 AM


Re: rat, stop.
What do you think about the fact that anti-aborion activists have abortions?
Perhaps it is my warped sense of humor, but I found it simply hilarious.
While it was surprising, it wasn't all that surprising. Humans are complex. They have amazing abilities to rationalize, so as to give themselves permission to do something that they would otherwise consider wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by nator, posted 03-25-2006 8:39 AM nator has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 36 of 301 (298067)
03-25-2006 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by riVeRraT
03-25-2006 7:08 AM


Re: Content, not looks or probable politics!
yes. abortion is just a quick fix for a deeper problem. but removing sex-ed from schools and making condoms unavailable to those under 18 and banning the morning after pill and making it illegal to disseminate birth control information are not the cure. the cure is raising educated, empowered, responsible children who understand the risks of sexual activity and can make responsible choices like postponing it and taking precautions. you know what the number one thing that sex ed does to kids? it makes them postpone their sexual activity. they didn't tell you that in bible camp did they?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by riVeRraT, posted 03-25-2006 7:08 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Coragyps, posted 03-25-2006 5:23 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 46 by riVeRraT, posted 03-25-2006 10:57 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 37 of 301 (298118)
03-25-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by macaroniandcheese
03-25-2006 12:59 PM


Re: Content, not looks or probable politics!
you know what the number one thing that sex ed does to kids? it makes them postpone their sexual activity.
"Abstinence-only" sex education does this, too. But there's a difference: 18 months after the class, when the kids from "A-o" class are out there doin' the horizontal bop, they are much less likely than kids that had real sex education to use condoms or other birth control. They're more likely to get pregnant or catch STD's. And I'll bet that makes them more likely to get an abortion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-25-2006 12:59 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 38 of 301 (298121)
03-25-2006 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Coragyps
03-25-2006 5:23 PM


Re: Content, not looks or probable politics!
no. i meant a real postponement. like to age 20 rather than age 15.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Coragyps, posted 03-25-2006 5:23 PM Coragyps has not replied

redseal
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 301 (298124)
03-25-2006 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by nator
03-25-2006 9:07 AM


Re: Content, not looks or probable politics!
The point is to show that the choice to have an abortion or not is a personal, individual choice
You are 100% correct on this point. I commend you. To sin or not is a personal, individual choice; it is not something foistered upon us.
and that even those who seem to believe with all their hearts that abortion is murder and should be illegal still avail themselves of a safe, legal abortion when they have determined that they really need one.
Those who proclaim abortion to be wrong, yet "avail themselves" abortions are modern-day Pharisees. Their lack of a moral back-bone and insincere proclamations puts them squarely amongst the other murderers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by nator, posted 03-25-2006 9:07 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Omnivorous, posted 03-25-2006 9:04 PM redseal has not replied
 Message 63 by nator, posted 03-26-2006 11:37 AM redseal has replied
 Message 64 by Chiroptera, posted 03-26-2006 11:40 AM redseal has not replied
 Message 66 by sidelined, posted 03-26-2006 12:09 PM redseal has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 40 of 301 (298139)
03-25-2006 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by redseal
03-25-2006 6:55 PM


Re: Content, not looks or probable politics!
redseal writes:
You are 100% correct on this point. I commend you. To sin or not is a personal, individual choice; it is not something foistered upon us.
That's "foisted"--I amend you.
Foistered might be a useful word, though--a blend of foisted and cloistered: the imposition of narrow-mindedness upon the open-minded...
To label something a sin or not is a personal, individual choice, based on nothing but the subjective embrace of one myth or another from among many, each in conflict with the others, none with any evidence for its special claims to Truth.
Most Americans--and most people--do not support a total ban on abortion. By what right should an extreme minority position be imposed on others?
Those who proclaim abortion to be wrong, yet "avail themselves" abortions are modern-day Pharisees. Their lack of a moral back-bone and insincere proclamations puts them squarely amongst the other murderers.
What brand of perfection keeps you from amongst the Pharisees? Do you claim to be a modern-day marvel, free of all hypocrisy? Already your sanctimony reeks in your own God's nostrils.

Who owns the whole rainy, stony earth? Death.
Who owns all of space? Death.
Who is stronger than hope? Death.
Who is stronger than the will? Death.
Stronger than love? Death.
Stronger than life? Death.
But who is stronger than Death?
Me, evidently.
Pass, Crow.
Ted Hughes, from "Examination at the Womb-Door"
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by redseal, posted 03-25-2006 6:55 PM redseal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by bob_gray, posted 03-25-2006 10:19 PM Omnivorous has replied

bob_gray
Member (Idle past 5013 days)
Posts: 243
From: Virginia
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 41 of 301 (298157)
03-25-2006 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Omnivorous
03-25-2006 9:04 PM


tyrany of the majority
quote:
Most Americans--and most people--do not support a total ban on abortion. By what right should an extreme minority position be imposed on others?
I'm not sure that this is the best sort of argument to use in this situation. I know I have often complained that the "unconstitutional" will of the majority is being foisted on the minority. My understanding is that the US system was set up to protect the minority from the majority. Don't get me wrong, I am 100% pro-choice, but this seems like a weak argument in any situation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Omnivorous, posted 03-25-2006 9:04 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Omnivorous, posted 03-25-2006 10:25 PM bob_gray has replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 42 of 301 (298160)
03-25-2006 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by bob_gray
03-25-2006 10:19 PM


Re: tyrany of the majority
I know I have often complained that the "unconstitutional" will of the majority is being foisted on the minority. My understanding is that the US system was set up to protect the minority from the majority. Don't get me wrong, I am 100% pro-choice, but this seems like a weak argument in any situation.
Best argument? Perhaps not. But it remains a fact.
The US system was set up to do many complicated things, like granting the vote only to land-owning white men, but as to protecting the minority, I agree--they should not be required to have abortions, despite the obvious benefits to the rest of us.
AbE: It also remains a fact that electoral numbers will determine abortion rights in the U.S.
This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 03-25-2006 10:31 PM

Who owns the whole rainy, stony earth? Death.
Who owns all of space? Death.
Who is stronger than hope? Death.
Who is stronger than the will? Death.
Stronger than love? Death.
Stronger than life? Death.
But who is stronger than Death?
Me, evidently.
Pass, Crow.
Ted Hughes, from "Examination at the Womb-Door"
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by bob_gray, posted 03-25-2006 10:19 PM bob_gray has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by bob_gray, posted 03-26-2006 8:04 AM Omnivorous has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 43 of 301 (298166)
03-25-2006 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by nator
03-25-2006 9:07 AM


Re: Content, not looks or probable politics!
that even those who seem to believe with all their hearts that abortion is murder and should be illegal still avail themselves of a safe, legal abortion when they have determined that they really need one.
Nobody hates a hypocrite more than me. But I still wouldn't use it to argue a point.
What kind of la-la land do you live in that you don't see that this is the case?
Some good friends of mine run Care-net
Pregnancy Centers | Life Affirming Choices | Pro Abundant Life
They have one facility across from the abortion clinic, and the way it was expressed to me, is that it wasn't a friendly relationship.
But I know thats not the rule.
But why is it I hear so much more about abortion, than help for unwanted pregnancies, or programs to encourage kids NOT to have sex. Having sex at a young age messes up your life, in more ways than one. Unfortunatly our society glorifies it, and it's solution is to have abortions, way to go.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by nator, posted 03-25-2006 9:07 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by nator, posted 03-26-2006 11:58 AM riVeRraT has not replied
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 44 of 301 (298167)
03-25-2006 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by PaulK
03-25-2006 9:27 AM


Re: Content, not looks or probable politics!
Which do you consider the more charitable reading ?t
Niether, they are just mixed up people, who are hypocrites.
There are many on both sides. Has nothing to do with the actual issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 03-25-2006 9:27 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by PaulK, posted 03-26-2006 4:13 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 45 of 301 (298168)
03-25-2006 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by AdminNWR
03-25-2006 10:36 AM


Re: rat, stop.
Well, I didn't just unjustly accuse her of an agenda, I went to her web-site and read up on exactly what she stands for. Her agenda is listed, mine is not, there-for it is not the same, and funkaloyd is blowing smoke.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by AdminNWR, posted 03-25-2006 10:36 AM AdminNWR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Omnivorous, posted 03-25-2006 11:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

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