These remarks convey absolutely nothing but your own subjective impression and what's needed is getting at the assumptions BENEATH your subjective impression.
Well, first things first, it's not just my opinion. Ask anyone on the street in Britain with half an ounce of interest in current affairs how they would class The Guardian politically and they will say 'left-of-centre' or similar.
Fine, then it's THEIR subjective impression too. By remarking that it's your subjective impression I didn't mean to dismiss it as in "just your opinion," I meant to be emphasizing that I understand the thread to be trying to get at the CRITERIA embodied in the opinion.
But since Wounded King mentioned the far left overtly Marxist and socialist press in the UK, I'd ask if you think possibly the Guardian is not considered leftist simply because people think the term really only applies to these far left positions?
In any case, we have YET to spell out some CRITERIA> Maybe your post will start to get to that.
Guardian readers have a reputation as middle-class moderates (see the Volvo/Sandal comment in my first post), and it has the rather affectionate nickname ('The Grauniad') because of a previous propensity for spelling mistakes. Likewise most people will class the BBC as non-partisan.
But, dear Oook, simply telling me how people classify these things does not illuminate for me the basis upon which they do so.
If you want an example of what most people in Britain would class as 'Left-Wing' try the The Socialist Worker. Of course you'll have to take my word for this; I'm not about to conduct a round of street surveys.
Yes, this agrees with what Wounded King was saying, and perhaps it is the conspicuousness of this line of thought that makes the Guardian appear more to the center. [???]
Secondly, my opinion in this instance does count for something.
Again I would merely repeat I wasn't questioning the value of your opinion, merely wanting to know on what you base it.
I would class myself as left of centre politically in Britain, and I'll be very surprised to find anyone that has ever met me thinking that I'm some kind of dangerous revolutionary loony.
When I call people leftists in the US I don't mean they are dangerous revolutionary loonies, I have a set of political views in mind that they hold that I consider politically bad bad bad and derived from Marxism too as a matter of fact, but mostly without their being aware of it, so therefore not dangerous revolutionary loonies (except unintentionally.)
Why then do I find myself agreeing with a lot of the editorials and commentaries in The Guardian, if it is a Far-Left rag?
Because maybe you are a leftist according to conservative US opinion such as mine or Steve's, if we could ever find out what you actually think and what the Guardian actually thinks, and whether it has anything in common with the categories we have been trying to spell out.
The perceptions of left/right are obviously skewed somehow. As I said, I believe that this is because the balance between 'Left' and 'Right' is different in the States.
Maybe, maybe not. It may be mostly a semantic thing. We may never find out as nobody seems willing to address specific content.
Of course my 'sliding scale' example is a massive over-simplification - I admitted that much myself - but I think that it does have some mileage (especially as a debating tool). Let me give you a few examples, one of which is taken from The Guardian unlimited:
The National Health Service
Here's a prime example of how things are obviously polarised. There is obviously a debate about the NHS in British politics over how much weight should be taken up by the private sector and how much by the state, but if any politician messes around with the principle that the care should be free at the point of treatment they are in trouble. Contrast this with US politics, where commitment to the same type of investment would be political suicide. Some people can't afford adequate healthcare - screw 'em!
Well, there's a straw man for ya.
The same argument can be put forward for education and transport, and I see the same difference in emphasis between the countries.
What emphasis?
Religious Freedom:
Although this doesn't at first glance appear to be a personal freedom vs state, I would argue that it is another good example of the contrast. Many of those involved in mainstream politics in the US have the view that because they are in the majority, then they should have the freedom to do whatever they please when it comes down to religion. The centre ground in Britain is held by people who accept that certain aspects of religion have to be curbed in order for society as a whole to be fair.
Overall would you agree that Europe and the UK are in general simply more left than the US and that may be why we might see the Guardian's views as very left and you simply see it as somewhat left of center? In which case we might actually agree on what constitutes a leftist view if we could isolate it from that context.
See, that is why I was hoping to pin down particular items. Yes, socialist medicine is a leftist item, and the view that religion should be suppressed is a leftist item from my point of view, so it appears that we are perhaps mostly talking about the greater leftist bent of the UK.
I hold that despite the constitutional separation of church and state, religion (specifically Christianity) plays a much bigger part in politics in the USA than it does in Europe.
Yes, always has, but especially became an issue in reaction against the leftist drift of the country since the sixties.
Gun Ownership
I've touched on this in another thread, and I know that at least one person will disagree with me, but in my mind this is a classic Right/Left issue. The right of one individual to own a gun is compared to the right of another not to be shot by some nutter who just lost his job and owned the gun legally!!!. The Right-wing in the US are the most fervent supporters of semi-automatic 'hunting rifles', it is a non issue in the UK.
Yes, well recall that we had a little set-to with your army at one point, in fact a couple of those, and we also had a lot of wild land with beasts to be subdued and a lot of Indians who were interested in scalping us, and the farther west we got the more we had these problems, and now we see the left taking control of the country and we do NOT want to give up our right to defend ourselves. I agree, it's a left/right issue fundamentally.
So, to summarise:
My sliding scale idea is a gross generalisation. It doesn't fully take into account that many people have a variety of opinions on a variety of subjects. It glosses over the complexity of the economy and society. It is, by and large, just my opinion.
I think I missed your sliding scale Oook, I really don't know what you are referring to.
What it does do is give you an impression of where I stand on issues and how I percieve Right vs Left. It also gives you a summary of the where I think the balance between Right and Left is struck in the US and the UK.
What I've learned from this list of yours is that the UK is officially committed to a leftist position on issues to which conservatives here are opposed, and our left no doubt agrees with your official position. So it functions perhaps as a starter list of some clear demarcators between left and right, AND they may be the beginning of an understanding of how the Guardian is leftist or a bit left of center and what those terms mean on each side of the Atlantic and why. That is, it no doubt IS leftist according to US conservative views of the list you've given.
My choice of paper is The Independent, and I would also class it as centre/centre-left. An example of a what I (and many others) would call a Right-of-Centre paper is the Daily Telegraph.
So what positions does the DT espouse that make it right of center?
What about you? How would you describe these examples? How do you define the Left/Right divide?
I agree as I've said that what you've called left I would call left only more so, but I think you think of it as less left than I do because your nation is more left overall. I think it could turn out that we agree on what specifically is a leftist position considered in isolation from such contextual factors.
It appears there isn't a single Brit here who isn't either leftist or left of center. I'd like to hear from a Brit on the right.
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-25-2005 12:16 PM
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