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Author Topic:   Playboy made me do it
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 5 of 183 (223729)
07-14-2005 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by nator
07-14-2005 10:20 AM


While I think the media isn't terribly socially responsible, I personally don't blame them for doing their job - which is to show us what we want. Altough I do think they cater to men a little too much.
Humans are naturally attracted to beautiful things. How long has this been a part of our nature? Probably thousands of years.
I guess the way I see it, I might have been more incluenced as a kid and young adult, but the power of the media is lessened as I mature. I now realize how the media completely distorts reality, almost to the point of fantasy.
They can show me pictures of Marky Mark with his six-pack belly all day long, but it won't change the fact that I am not attracted to him. Sure he's good looking and has a nice body, but it does nothing for me. My own tastes have developed over time because of personal experiences and maturity.
Now that doesn't mean I don't appreciate Brad Pitt in a baby blue leisure suit, but a pretty face and hard body are secondary to a man's character. And having talked to my female friends about this, most of them agree. I've been attracted to men who weren't particularly handsome simply because he had a good heart and great senes of humor. All of a sudden, he became beautiful - literally. I didn't see his flaws as ugly, but as evidence of the life he's lived.
I personally don't think it's fair to blame the media. To me, that's akin to the wife-beater blaming his behavior on his dad. As adults, we are capable of making the right decisions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by nator, posted 07-14-2005 10:20 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by nator, posted 07-15-2005 1:44 AM roxrkool has replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 13 of 183 (224014)
07-15-2005 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by nator
07-15-2005 1:44 AM


shraf writes:
Of course we are attracted to beauty. That's normal and natural.
But what is beauty, and why has it's definition changed so much, especially for women, over time?
I guess I don't think 'beauty,' as in facial beauty, has changed overmuch through time. What I think has changed over time, and which may be culturally controlled, is body shape. Some cultures value/favor larger women, others favor tall women, and others favor petite women.
Why the differences? Possibly due to very sensible reasons. Women with large hips and breasts appear to be better mothers and in a culture that values and respects motherhood, those women become the ideal. In a culture that values and respects strength, perhaps tall and muscular women are the ideal. In a culture that values hardiness, perhaps petite women become the ideal.
These days, our culture, and others, value fitness and we've determined that slimmer women are more healthy than larger women.
I disagree that the media shows us only what we want. The media is also responsible for telling us what we should want, too. It does both.
For instance, holmes mentioned the bulimic Barbi twins and how unattractive he found them, despite the fact that Hefner and many others promoted them to the world as exceptionally beautiful.
They were wildly successful, had swimsuit calenders, posters, were Playboy Playmates, etc., so clearly lots and lots of men found them very attractive, yet the whole time they had a terrible eating disorder.
So, does this mean that lots and lots of men in America just happen to think underweight, plastic-looking women are the height of attractiveness?
I'd have to say those women just had the right people working for them.
Men just love women. Since they are visually stimulated, they love looking at women. To them, they're just nice bodies, faces, boobs, butts. Who they go home to or choose to marry are often nothing like those calendar girls.
If men were truly influenced by Playboy, fat and/or ugly women would never date, marry, or have children. Since that if far from the case, it's obvious most men are not overly affected by what they see on the media.
In my opinion, women are their own worst enemies. We attack each other's beauty, fitness level, hair color, etc. far more than men do. We buy those stupid glam magazines that tell us not to wear undersized bathing suits and then on the next page find a women in an undersized bathing suit. We undermine our own self-worth by kowtowing to the media.
Or, is it possible that the culture strongly influences people from a very early age to find "socially acceptable" bodies attractive and unacceptable ones unattractive?
I think for some men (and women) this may be the case. Especially in men and women who are insecure. What better way to boost your lagging self-esteem than be on the arm of a beautiful person?
However, I feel that most people, especially adults, recognize that beauty comes in many packages.
This message has been edited by roxrkool, 07-15-2005 08:41 PM

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 32 of 183 (224143)
07-16-2005 7:05 PM


Just for you Schraf!
I said it once and I'll say it again, we are our own worst enemy:
More Women Seek Vaginal Plastic Surgery
Run Date: 11/14/04
By Sandy Kobrin
WeNews correspondent
Surgery to reshape the labia and other areas of the vagina is picking up fast, say plastic surgeons. While some women undergo the operations to improve comfort, many want to conform to ideals set by the porn industry.
LOS ANGELES (WOMENSENEWS)--She was 20 years old and had never contemplated plastic surgery. But one day at the gym, the pretty, smooth-faced receptionist in a Los Angeles doctor's office looked at her vagina and noticed that her inner vaginal labia stuck out past her outer labia. She was horrified.
"I looked in like, those magazines, and saw that inner labia shouldn't stick out like mine did," said Crystal, who requested her last name be withheld. "So I had a labiaplasty and now I love the way I look; nice and neat and new. My vagina looks perfect."
In a labiaplasty, the surgical reshaping of female external genital structures, larger or uneven inner vaginal lips are cut and shortened.
Dr. V. Leroy Young, chair of the emerging trends task force of the Arlington Heights, IL., American Society of Plastic Surgeons, believes labiaplasty and vaginal cosmetic surgery are the fastest growing emerging growth trend in cosmetic plastic surgery.
While the organization has no exact numbers yet nationwide, Young noted that more and more doctors were querying the organization, inquiring about learning the procedure. In addition, the physicians that perform vaginal cosmetic surgery have reported enormous increases in patients, particularly over the past decade.
Dr. Pamela Loftus, a plastic surgeon in Boca Raton, Fla., has been performing labiaplasties and vaginal cosmetic surgeries for over 20 years.
Since she put up a Web site two and a half years ago, her business has increased and she's been bombarded with queries. Loftus said she does around six labiaplasties a week. "For the past two years we have been avalanched with phone calls from women who have been made aware of the surgery and want it," Dr. Loftus said.
Physicians advertising vaginal cosmetic procedures surgeries are peppered throughout magazines across the country as this type of cosmetic surgery grows in popularity. As society pressures women to look younger and more perfect, many physicians believe the popularity of these types of surgeries will continue to grow.
Cosmetic surgery in general is on the rise. About 870,000 cosmetic procedures were performed in 2003, a 6.7 percent increase over 2002, according to American Academy of Cosmetic Surgery statistics. These surgeries include breast augmentation, gluteal implants, liposuctions, face lifts, and others, including labiaplasties.
"The numbers for labiaplasty are increasing every year and I think the procedure has finally been accepted in the mainstream," Young said. "This was once a procedure that fell under the radar and now you have women coming in and asking for it."
Former Domain of Sex Workers
Labiaplasty was once the domain of sex workers, nude entertainers, nude models, swimsuit models and the occasional woman who needed her labia reduced for medical reasons such as infection or pain. Not anymore. Doctors have reported that women from every walk of life and from ages 15 to 75 are having labia and cosmetic vaginal surgery.
Many doctors who perform the surgeries say while there are some women who opt for the surgery because they are unhappy or their labia has caused them physical discomfort, the bulk of the women getting this surgery are ultimately being pressured by men who want them to conform to a idea of beauty most often seen in the porn industry. Doctors say these women request the procedure because they are afraid of having "old looking" vaginas. Doctors Loftus and Young say feedback from male partners is the number one reason women request the surgery.
"The most common reason we hear is that they have had a negative comment made by a male sexual partner. Women are made to feel that they are not perfect the way they are and often it's the partner that sets this off," Loftus said.
"My feeling is that women who aren't sex workers are getting this kind of thing because there's pressure from someone who's telling them they're not perfect," Young said. 'There's often pressure from a man who tells them they need it," adding "I assume that their standards for labial beauty were set by a combination of the porn industry, sex-oriented magazines and the Internet."
Sign of Aging
Los Angeles gynecologist Dr. David Matlock, who says he performs more vaginal cosmetic surgery than anyone else in the country, claims women are having labiaplasties and other forms of vaginal cosmetic surgery because "longer, lose hanging inner lips is a sign of aging and women don't want to look old there, either."
"Even young women will look at loose hanging labia as a sign of aging and want to have it done," he said.
Loftus, the Florida surgeon, agreed. "Youth-enhancing surgery is very common now. Why should it stop with the face? Girls 20 to 30 years old now want every part of their body to look as young as they are."
"Women want to be tight," said Matlock. "They don't want sagging or loose labia. I can't tell you how many pages and pages of pornographic material woman have brought into me saying 'I want to look like this.'"
"Ever since I had the surgery, I feel young and free and prettier for my boyfriend," Crystal said. "Even if it's something nobody else can see, I feel better. It's not on my mind all the time anymore."
Another cosmetic surgery--vaginal rejuvenation--is also rising. It entails tightening the vaginal and perineum area, often stretched during childbirth. Some doctors also claim it increases sexual pleasure for both partners.
"I've had women who come in and say to me, 'He's small can you tighten me up'" said Matlock, who said he performed between 40 to 60 vaginal cosmetic surgeries a month in his Beverly Hills practice, charging around $5,000 for a labiaplasty. He said he grosses $250,000 a month performing these surgeries and noted he has had women come in from all over the world for vaginal cosmetic surgery.
Downside Risk
Some doctors dispute whether constructing a tighter vagina increases a woman's sexual pleasure. "Yes you can do the rejuvenation to have a tighter vagina," said Young. "But anytime you make an incision you cut nerves, induce scarring and there is a downside risk, including pain."
"Plastic surgery is being way over used in many different ways" said Kim Gandy, president of the National Organization for Women. "There's something off about what's going on in our culture that makes women feel they need to live up to some ideal."
Ileana Vasquez is a 29 year-old Southern California housewife with four children. She read about vaginal rejuvenation after she saw an ad in a magazine. Her marriage was in trouble and she noted that her husband wasn't happy with her sexually.
"One time he had a few beers and told me that because I had all our kids and was looser now he didn't want me as a woman anymore," Vasquez said. "He did say he was sorry later on but I knew he was telling the truth."
Vasquez had the surgery and she noted her marriage is back on track and her sex life is good again. "He's become my sweetheart again," she said. "He bought me a house and he wants me all the time."
Then she paused. "But there are times I still can't forgive him for how he made me feel," she said. "Sometimes I get so mad, so hurt. I mean I had the kids, he should have understood."
Sandy Kobrin is a Los Angeles based writer who specializes in writing about women's issues and criminal justice.
OMFG!!! I'm speechless. Slightly horrified, but speechless.
This message has been edited by roxrkool, 07-16-2005 07:12 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 07-16-2005 7:30 PM roxrkool has not replied
 Message 42 by nator, posted 07-17-2005 2:54 PM roxrkool has replied
 Message 59 by crashfrog, posted 07-17-2005 6:25 PM roxrkool has replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 74 of 183 (224419)
07-18-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by nator
07-18-2005 11:53 AM


Re: pop quiz.
schraf writes:
Well, shit, of course if she's in a nerdy, sciency field her appearence doesn't matter as much. But that's not most of the world.
Ouch!
You're probably right, though. In science, what matters is your work. However, you still have to dress nice, even if it's casual and/or conservative.
In my (past) line of work, which happened to be male-dominated, women did not overdo the make-up, nails, hair, etc. If you did, you ran the risk of the guys not taking you seriously. Either that or not getting a job.
Women had to look like they are capable and willing to hike miles through the bush, drive a 4WD truck and dig it out of the mud if necessary, and use a shovel. If your hair looks high maintenance, your nails are painted, and you walk into an interview dressed in high heels, short skirt, and revealing top, you aren't likely to get a job.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by nator, posted 07-18-2005 11:53 AM nator has not replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 75 of 183 (224420)
07-18-2005 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by nator
07-17-2005 2:54 PM


Re: Just for you Schraf!
I'd laugh if I didn't think it was likely.
I mean if the porn stars can do it, it must be something to strive for. lol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by nator, posted 07-17-2005 2:54 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 76 of 183 (224425)
07-18-2005 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by crashfrog
07-17-2005 6:25 PM


Re: Just for you Schraf!
Whoa! Hold on there killer!
I personally think that if women want to have cartoon boobs, a couple of ribs removed for a smaller waist, or have their vulva sliced up, more power to them. But I still find it horrifying that women would take such steps to modify their bodies to such degrees just because they want to look like porn stars or please their boyfriend of two months.

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 Message 78 by Silent H, posted 07-18-2005 2:23 PM roxrkool has replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 79 of 183 (224430)
07-18-2005 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Silent H
07-18-2005 2:23 PM


Re: Just for you Schraf!
See, I didn't get that part either. In fact, both my husband and I hold the opposite opinion based on the mags and porn we've seen. The vulgarity aspect makes a lot of sense to me.
It seems to me that some people get these crazy ideas and sometimes they just take off.

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 88 of 183 (224464)
07-18-2005 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by macaroniandcheese
07-18-2005 4:38 PM


Re: Just for you Schraf!

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 90 of 183 (224470)
07-18-2005 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by nator
07-18-2005 5:13 PM


I stopped reading glam mags in my late teens/early 20s. I was reading a bathing suit article in Glamour where they showed you which bathing suits looked best on which body types. The article also stated how important it was for women to stay away from suits that were too small. Then a couple of pages down were several photos of women in suits that were obviously WAY too small for them. The blatant hypocrisy disgusted me and I never picked up or have even read another glam magazine again.
I'm not that fucking stupid, than you very much!
So while it's not easy to entirely ignore the 'ideal' images of women portrayed by the media, you can choose to ignore a lot of it.
This message has been edited by roxrkool, 07-18-2005 06:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 112 of 183 (224502)
07-18-2005 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by arachnophilia
07-18-2005 6:45 PM


Re: pop quiz.
arach writes:
point of fact is that most guys dont like breast implants nowadays. it's not the mainstream trend. maybe in the 80's, but not today.
Why is that?

This message is a reply to:
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 125 of 183 (224638)
07-19-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by nator
07-19-2005 9:27 AM


I was probably about the same age as you when I saw my first Playboy.
Starting before I was born, my father received Playboy every month for about 40 years. Interestingly, that experience had an odd effect on me.
The fact that my father received that magazine didn't bother my mother in the least - and my mom is a very traditional and devout Mexican Catholic woman who closes her eyes during even the briefest nudity in movies. My mom did not feel the least bit jealous or angry about my father reading that magazine. She was confident enough in herself, my father's love, and in their marriage that Playboy was a complete non-issue to her.
As a result, I think I turned out to be a pretty confident woman. I'm not a jealous or overly possessive person. I never felt insecure or angry when my husband went to strip bars or even when women openly flirted with him in front of me. Hell, he's been to a few cat houses for bachelor parties and I didn't care. I guess I also have always trusted him and knew what I meant to him. I'm sure that is a large part of it.
It's interesting how different people react to similar situations. I never once felt like I had to look like those Playboy girls. I'd have to say reading Cosmo had a much more negative effect than any porn mag.

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