Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 57 (9054 total)
73 online now:
Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), PaulK, Phat, Tangle (4 members, 69 visitors)
Newest Member: EWolf
Post Volume: Total: 888,260 Year: 5,906/14,102 Month: 54/438 Week: 98/83 Day: 0/21 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Mind's Eye (etc?)
Tony650
Member (Idle past 3097 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 46 of 65 (217349)
06-16-2005 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tony650
06-14-2005 4:23 PM


Re: Rate your mental 'senses'
Just a bump for my mental "senses" list. Anybody want to add theirs? I'm curious to see how others rate their own.

I know the substance of my posts tends to get lost in their (my) verbose style, so here's a brief summary of the exercise.

Rank each of your senses in order of their ease of mental replication. That is, how easy/difficult you find it to create their respective sensations in your mind. Also, if you are able to perceive your thoughts by any other methods please feel free to add them to the list, and explain them in any way you can.

Once again, here are mine, listed in order from most easily imagined to least easily imagined.

1. Sight.
2. Hearing.
3. Touch.
4. Taste.
5. Smell.
6. Other - None, so far as I can tell.

The pertinent post is message #33 for any who wish to read it.:)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Tony650, posted 06-14-2005 4:23 PM Tony650 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 06-16-2005 11:08 AM Tony650 has not yet responded
 Message 49 by Chiroptera, posted 06-16-2005 1:55 PM Tony650 has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33496
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 47 of 65 (217366)
06-16-2005 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Tony650
06-16-2005 9:26 AM


Re: Rate your mental 'senses'
I'm not at all sure how to rate such things because I can't find any uniformity. For example, I can easily imagine the taste, feel and smell of a quarter slice lettuce salad with Russian Dressing that I had at the Lord Baltimore Hotel when I was six or so, or the full experience of driving Road Atlanta at speed, each place my head banged against the roll bar, the feel of clutch, brake and throttle instant to instant around the track, the tightness of the harness as I late brake going into 7a and b, the weight increase on the uphill back straight and the loss of weight as I crest the hill and pass under the bridge on the reverse camber run to the turn onto the front straight. The feel, sounds, sounds, smell, vision are all there. But what I had for lunch yesterday is a total blank.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Tony650, posted 06-16-2005 9:26 AM Tony650 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 06-16-2005 11:25 AM jar has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19302
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 48 of 65 (217370)
06-16-2005 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
06-16-2005 11:08 AM


Re: Rate your mental 'senses'
:laugh: Sounds just like my dad. He could tell you how to fix a tractor that the neighbours had in 1928, but he couldn't tell you whether or not he had had lunch today.

I agree that the senses tend to run together. Like schrafinator pointed out, taste and smell are almost indistinguishable.

When I try to recall something, or even imagine something that never happened, visual images seem to come easiest and aural images next. I find sensations of touch difficult to actively recall.

On the other hand, when memories are spontaneous (which seems to be more frequently as time progresses) it is more of a total experience rather than individual senses.


People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 06-16-2005 11:08 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 65 (217417)
06-16-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Tony650
06-16-2005 9:26 AM


Re: Rate your mental 'senses'
Let's see, my most easily imagined sensations:

1. action, motion, spatial relationships
2. auditory
3. visual
4. tactile

(actually, visual and tactile are kind of tied here)

I don't tend to have any strong "images" of taste or smell -- I can recognize tastes and smells once they occur in real life, and I can remember the "adjectives" that describe them (yummy, salty, acrid, etc.) but I don't have a good memory for the sensations themselves.

Also, I don't claim this is accurate. Like I said before, if an expert were to test me somehow, she might well come to the conclusion that visual images play a much greater role in my thinking than I realize -- I am only going by how it appears to me.

An interesting side-note: although I do have fairly clear "images" of sound in my head, the sound of voices and so forth, it seems to be more like murmering -- I don't have exact, clear words in my head, even in the cases where I can recite, exactly, word-for-word some conversation or speech.

Perhaps not related, I find that when I am trying to clarify my position and formulate an argument, like when I am trying to figure out how to respond to a post on this board, I often have to physically stop myself from muttering to myself audibly -- especially when I am walking along a public street.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Tony650, posted 06-16-2005 9:26 AM Tony650 has not yet responded

  
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3638
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 50 of 65 (220712)
06-29-2005 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tony650
06-12-2005 7:55 AM


Tony writes:

Is this truly as absolute as it sounds or do you just mean that you find it very, very difficult?...

if I were to ask you to describe your parents to me, or brothers, sisters, a friend, etc, are you really saying that you don't "see" their faces in your mind?

I've been trying for many years now and I still can't picture my parents' and siblings' faces, let alone describing them.

It's not a dumb question. I have found that not many people are like myself.

This is probably why I am not good at all with mental math. I can't even say out the quadratic formula without writing it down first, look at it, and say it out loud... and I have it memorized since middle school. I know all the kinematic equations but I always have to write them all out on the board when I do a lecture session (I usually pretend that they are on the board to help my students).

This is why I didn't like my high school calculus teacher. Back then, he made each one of us stand up and say out loud all the trig ID's, functions, intergrals, derivitives, etc. I always stumbled through them. Sometimes I even had to use my finger to write in thin air to help me say them out loud... and I ended up with a 5 on the AP exam.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Tony650, posted 06-12-2005 7:55 AM Tony650 has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3860
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 51 of 65 (418003)
08-25-2007 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
06-11-2005 10:05 PM


Dreaming in color, etc. (call it a "bump")
I was a small part of the discussion of "perception of color" at the Truth is Relative topic. That reminded me of this topic, which may be the better place for such discussion.

In re-reading this topic, I discovered a message I had not answered:

Ringo writes:

Do you dream in colour?

What I dreamed and what I remember dreaming may be two different things. At this point all my recollections of dreams past are pretty much completely gone.

My general impression is that I dream in vague soft focus black & white. Perhaps a fair share of the dreams are rather abstract. Sometimes I'll go for many days (weeks?) with no recollection of having had any dreams. I have heard that dreaming connects up to long term memory formation. Perhaps why I am memory deficient is that I'm also dream deficient.

Are you good at trivia?

I certainly know a lot of trivial things, such as music factoids. But again, I'll mention that my memory seems to be generally poor, both short and longer term. I have a geology bachelors degree (completed in '83), but I suspect I now remember only a tiny fraction of what I was exposed to.

Do songs run through your head?

Not really. I can sort of recreate fragments of certain favorite tunes.

There were two college classes I had particularly hard times with. The first was historical geology (stratigraphy and structure). A lot of raw data memorization. I also had a terrible time with the second term of calculus. I just couldn't remember much of what came before, to build on. Now, I remember essentially nothing about calculus. To me, it was the greatest waste of time and money of my life.

In the context of even "Great Debates" I'm involved in - I find I really have to go back and reread upthread a lot. Heck, even in preparing this message, what I just wrote at the top is pretty vague.

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Nixon was a professional politician, and I despised everything he stood for — but if he were running for president this year against the evil Bush-Cheney gang, I would happily vote for him." - Hunter S. Thompson

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 06-11-2005 10:05 PM ringo has not yet responded

  
Zawi
Member (Idle past 2694 days)
Posts: 126
From: UK
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 52 of 65 (418030)
08-25-2007 11:20 PM


When I first wake up I'm better at visualising things, such as equations, and I can try solve equations with some effort in my head. But by the middle of the day my brain becomes disagreeable and stops me from imagining things, I don't know why because it didn't always used to be so disagreeable.

I'm pretty good at remembering certain types of visual information, for example I can draw a pretty good political world map from memory, with most of the countries roughly in place (I also draw out the States of America as though they were seperate countries for fun), but I can't visualise any of this in my head. I can visualise it for about a split second as I put pen to paper, but I can't just close my eyes and see the world map before me, so I'm not sure what process is taking place that enables me to do this.

So I'm not sure how good at visualising I really am.

Edited by Zawi, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 08-25-2007 11:52 PM Zawi has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19302
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 53 of 65 (418034)
08-25-2007 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Zawi
08-25-2007 11:20 PM


Zawi writes:

(I also draw out the States of America as though they were seperate countries for fun), but I can't visualise any of this in my head.

I can name the 50 states by visualizing the map and counting on my fingers - but if I miss one, it's almost impossible to figure out which one. (I can also name most of the state capitals by "replaying" what I've heard on Jeopardy, etc.)


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Zawi, posted 08-25-2007 11:20 PM Zawi has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3860
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 54 of 65 (555883)
04-16-2010 1:19 AM


Mind's Eye article in Discover Magazine
Look Deep Into the Mind's Eye

quote:
One day in 2005, a retired building surveyor in Edinburgh visited his doctor with a strange complaint: His mind’s eye had suddenly gone blind.

The surveyor, referred to as MX by his doctors, was 65 at the time. He had always felt that he possessed an exceptional talent for picturing things in his mind. The skill had come in handy in his job, allowing MX to recall the fine details of the buildings he surveyed. Just before drifting off to sleep, he enjoyed running through recent events as if he were watching a movie. He could picture his family, his friends, and even characters in the books he read.

Then these images all vanished. The change happened shortly after MX went to a hospital to have his blocked coronary arteries treated. As a cardiologist snaked a tube into the arteries and cleared out the obstructions, MX felt a “reverberation” in his head and a tingling in his left arm. He didn’t think to mention it to his doctors at the time. But four days later he realized that when he closed his eyes, all was darkness


More at the cite.

Quoting my message 1:

This is intended as a little exploration of how minds work.

Now, I have what I think to be an exceptionally bad memory. I have a terrible time remembering names and faces, etc.

The "minds eye" part:
The story goes, that some people have photographic memories. Well, so do I, but there's no film.

I ask members - Can you close your eyes, think of something you have seen, and bring up a mental image? Do you have a "photograph in your head"? My understanding is that various people can do this, at least to some degree. I can not. I just have a dark screen.

So, what's in your "minds eye"?

I do occasionally have "mind's eye" images, but they seem to be pretty rare and quite brief. Also, such seem to be random events and not something I can "do on command".

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by slevesque, posted 04-16-2010 2:16 AM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply
 Message 56 by Huntard, posted 04-16-2010 3:33 AM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply
 Message 64 by Blue Jay, posted 04-16-2010 10:10 AM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 55 of 65 (555887)
04-16-2010 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Minnemooseus
04-16-2010 1:19 AM


Re: Mind's Eye article in Discover Magazine
I never knew this could an aptitude that you could 'lose' or even not have.

my mind's eye is OK I guess. When it happens randomly it's usually when a hear a song I listened to a lot while doing something. When I hear the song, I ''see'' what I was doing (usually video games from when I was younger)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-16-2010 1:19 AM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 1359 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 56 of 65 (555888)
04-16-2010 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Minnemooseus
04-16-2010 1:19 AM


Re: Mind's Eye article in Discover Magazine
I'm like that building surveyor I guess. I can do all the things mentioned in that article. It's quite nice. I think this also comes with a vivid imagination. I can build images in my head when I read books, for instance, they're quite realistic. What I would like to mention though is that I can also do this with my eyes open. It's clearer when I close them, but open eyes does the trick as well.

I also have that thing Slevesque mentions, when hearing music, I think about games I used to play to that music.

All in all an interesting ability.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-16-2010 1:19 AM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by slevesque, posted 04-16-2010 3:57 AM Huntard has responded

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 57 of 65 (555891)
04-16-2010 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Huntard
04-16-2010 3:33 AM


Re: Mind's Eye article in Discover Magazine
You mentionning mental images while reading reminds me something I found quite interesting a 3-4 years ago.

Ever read the book ''perfume'' ? I had to read it when I was in secondary 5 (11th grade a think) . It's the story of this guy who has this incredible sense of smell, and in fact the whole novel is based around that idea. The narrator describes everything through the sense of smell, and so if the main character enters a room, it won't say ''the walls were white'' but it will instead say ''the walls had the odor of rotten cheese in them''.

Now, a year after me and all my friends had read the book, they made a movie out of it. What was interesting was that every friend that saw the movie said that it was almost exactly how they had envisioned it. Myself included.

In other words, this very peculiar manner of describing things in the book had projected the very same images in our minds. Which is radically different from the usual, where everybody reads a book, imagines it totally differently, goes to see the movie and find it to not be like they imagined it.

Although I have never found an answer of why this is the case.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Huntard, posted 04-16-2010 3:33 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2010 4:15 AM slevesque has responded
 Message 60 by Huntard, posted 04-16-2010 4:36 AM slevesque has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 116 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 58 of 65 (555893)
04-16-2010 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by slevesque
04-16-2010 3:57 AM


Re: Mind's Eye article in Discover Magazine
Ever read the book ''perfume''

That's imaginary, isn't it? That was one of the two reasons why I never read it. It imagines a condition that (so far as I know) no human being has ever experienced. This may be clever, but it provides us with no insight into the human condition.

Now, a year after me and all my friends had read the book, they made a movie out of it. What was interesting was that every friend that saw the movie said that it was almost exactly how they had envisioned it. Myself included.

In other words, this very peculiar manner of describing things in the book had projected the very same images in our minds. [...] Although I have never found an answer of why this is the case.

Well apart from anything else, because it wasn't true. You weren't actually reading a book written by someone who really did experience his world primarily through his sense of smell. Such a book doesn't exist. Such a person doesn't exist. You were reading a book by an admittedly gifted novelist who may have had a severe head-cold throughout the writing of the novel and never smelled anything.

The narrator does not exist, and never did exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by slevesque, posted 04-16-2010 3:57 AM slevesque has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by slevesque, posted 04-16-2010 4:30 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 59 of 65 (555896)
04-16-2010 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Dr Adequate
04-16-2010 4:15 AM


Re: Mind's Eye article in Discover Magazine
That's imaginary, isn't it? That was one of the two reasons why I never read it. It imagines a condition that (so far as I know) no human being has ever experienced. This may be clever, but it provides us with no insight into the human condition.

I consider it a must-read for anybody who is interested by litterature.

But I don't really get what you are trying to say.

Well apart from anything else, because it wasn't true. You weren't actually reading a book written by someone who really did experience his world primarily through his sense of smell. Such a book doesn't exist. Such a person doesn't exist. You were reading a book by an admittedly gifted novelist who may have had a severe head-cold throughout the writing of the novel and never smelled anything.

And this is why I find the situation very interesting. Books that describe places with visual references, in other words with the primary sense we use to examine our surroundings, rarely gives two person the same mental images. Yet this book, when describing the places (and the characters, etc.) with the sense of smell, our sense that is almost never our primary one for describing our surroundings, produces the same mental images for almost everybody.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2010 4:15 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2010 7:18 AM slevesque has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 1359 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 60 of 65 (555897)
04-16-2010 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by slevesque
04-16-2010 3:57 AM


Re: Mind's Eye article in Discover Magazine
slevesque writes:

You mentionning mental images while reading reminds me something I found quite interesting a 3-4 years ago.

Ever read the book ''perfume'' ? I had to read it when I was in secondary 5 (11th grade a think) . It's the story of this guy who has this incredible sense of smell, and in fact the whole novel is based around that idea. The narrator describes everything through the sense of smell, and so if the main character enters a room, it won't say ''the walls were white'' but it will instead say ''the walls had the odor of rotten cheese in them''.


No, but I've seen the movie.

Now, a year after me and all my friends had read the book, they made a movie out of it. What was interesting was that every friend that saw the movie said that it was almost exactly how they had envisioned it. Myself included.

In other words, this very peculiar manner of describing things in the book had projected the very same images in our minds. Which is radically different from the usual, where everybody reads a book, imagines it totally differently, goes to see the movie and find it to not be like they imagined it.

Although I have never found an answer of why this is the case.


I'm wit Dr. A on this one. This is because no human has ever experienced something like this. This makes you envision it like the writer tells it, which is very limited, because no one knows what it's really like. This makes it easier to come up with the same "images" in your mind.

Look at it this way. When describing the world as seen through "ordinary" senses, we all experience it a bit differently, so we get different images from other people. But now, add an "extra-ordinary" sense, and nobody knows what it's like, so all you have to go on is the author's description.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by slevesque, posted 04-16-2010 3:57 AM slevesque has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by slevesque, posted 04-16-2010 4:42 AM Huntard has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021