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Author Topic:   wheat grass... any science to this fad?
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 76 of 101 (416535)
08-16-2007 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by DynamicGreens
08-16-2007 12:49 PM


Not lying?
Research
I just had a quick perusal of this part of your site. Unless those claims are actually backed up you are deliberately trying to pretend to be scientific and using the careful wording of your site to mislead. That is just as much lying as saying the dog ate my homework (when, in fact, I ground it into hamburger and feed it to him).
I haven't dug deeply but given the exchange here so far it looks like you are doing an evasive dance to avoid being pinned down. The snake oil salesman suit does seem to fit you well. I'm waiting for some substantive rebuttal from you.
I'm somewhat curious as to what the post of nators was that was deleted on your site.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by DynamicGreens, posted 08-16-2007 12:49 PM DynamicGreens has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by DynamicGreens, posted 08-16-2007 1:14 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
DynamicGreens
Junior Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 11
From: Toronto, ON
Joined: 08-12-2007


Message 77 of 101 (416536)
08-16-2007 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by NosyNed
08-16-2007 1:08 PM


Re: Not lying?
To avoid being pinned down for what...publishing opinion and research of recognized industry professionals?
Complementing this by allowing customers post their personal health experiences?
Adding an accurate disclaimer that shows up on the web, the order page in particular and the packaging itself?
Edited by DynamicGreens, : No reason given.
Edited by DynamicGreens, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by NosyNed, posted 08-16-2007 1:08 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Percy, posted 08-16-2007 3:24 PM DynamicGreens has not replied
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 08-16-2007 6:27 PM DynamicGreens has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 78 of 101 (416544)
08-16-2007 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by DynamicGreens
08-16-2007 1:14 PM


Re: Not lying?
Let's start with this:
Derek Stem aka DynamicGreens writes:
Adding an accurate disclaimer that shows up on the web, the order page in particular and the packaging itself?
Well, let's take a look at your disclaimer:
DynamicGreens Disclaimer writes:
While we personally use DynamicGreens products to pursue excellent health, we are not, nor do we represent ourselves to be medical or health care professionals and expressly make no guarantee as to any health or medical benefits obtained by the use of wheatgrass juice. You agree to assume complete responsibility for any decision to use our products for any purpose, including health or medical purposes and assume complete responsibility for any consequences to your health, whether alone or in conjunction with any other health or medical product and agree to consult with a qualified health care professional before engaging in any use, especially if you have any known health or medical conditions.
DynamicGreens, WheatgrassJuice.us, WheatgrassJuice.ca, including its officers, directors, agents and assignees, is not responsible for any adverse effects or consequences resulting from the use of our wheatgrass juice products or from the use of any of the suggestions, preparations or procedures outlined, discussed or recommended on this web site or elsewhere.
Gee, Derek, your disclaimer reads just like any standard legal disclaimer intended to disavow any responsibility for what happens to anyone who actually uses the information you provide. Ever see a disclaimer like this attached to any prescription medicine you get that's been through traditional double-blind studies and approved by the FDA? I don't think so.
But the main problem is that your disclaimer is at great odds with the rest of your website which makes many confident claims regarding the benefits of wheatgrass juice.
Derek writes:
To avoid being pinned down for what...publishing opinion and research of recognized industry professionals?
Opinion? Where does it say at your website anywhere besides your disclaimer that you're only giving your opinion? Your uninformed, unscientific opinion at that, just as you state in your disclaimer. I'm looking at this webpage right now:
Here's a few excerpts, you let me know which of them are stated as if they were only an opinion:
DynamicGreens Website writes:
Wheatgrass Juice has Everything Your Body Needs
...
Wheatgrass juice is a complete food or super food because the broad spectrum of nutrition can single handedly support the body.
...
Wheatgrass has been shown to be a potent inhibitor of several carcinogens. Applying low levels of the extract to mutagens diminished activity in them by up to 99%.
--Dr. Chiu Nan Lai
...
Wheatgrass juice is rich in chlorophyll. Chlorophyll purifies the blood, prevents tooth decay, aids in proper digestion, helps detoxify the liver, keeps the thyroid gland in balance, cleanses internal organs, enhances capillary function, supports sex hormones, decontaminates inorganic chemicals, and builds up white blood cell counts.
--Dr. Ann Wigmore
Dr. Chiu-Nan Lai is the founder of Lapis Lazuli Light, whose "objective is to promote Dr. Lai's 'Body, Mind and Spirit' Total Health concept to all levels of society." And Ann Wigmore, deceased as of 1994, has a website at Ann Wigmore Natural Health Institute | Living Foods Lifestyle that says, "the Ann Wigmore Natural Health Institute is to promote self-healing through the Living Foods Lifestyle®."
And get a load of this about cancer:
DynamicGreens writes:
Have Been Diagnosed With Cancer
Having been confronted with a health crisis, they look to make positive changes. Typically, the goal is to make adjustments that may help fuel the body short-term as well as develop a sustainable health promoting environment for the long-term. For the most part they indicate:
  • Sometimes before, sometimes during or sometimes after traditional medical treatments they come to believe that modern medicine may not be the only path for them
  • After doing personal research, they have found encouraging information about alternative treatment plans
  • They come to believe that cancer comes from malfunction within the body
  • They come to believe that the power to heal comes also comes from within and move toward a holistic approach centering on the capabilities of the body to "heal itself"
Your website is actually encouraging victims of cancer to seek alternatives outside traditional medicine! What could be more horrific?
Your website is full of all the false claims of your industry, like these from you page of Wigmore's claims:
Dynamic Greens writes:
  • Weight Loss: Naturally suppresses appetite by fulfilling nutritional requirements.
  • Aids Digestion: Stimulates peristalsis, improves intestines and is a mild diuretic.
  • Whitens Teeth: Dip your toothbrush in Wheatgrass juice for a whiter smile!
  • Prevents Tooth Decay: Tooth decay is the result of degenerative changes in the body. Gargle with wheatgrass juice for toothaches and sore throats.
  • Freshens Breath: Chlorophyll neutralizes bad odors for up to six hours- it is actually an ingredient in many breath fresheners!
  • Neutralizes Odors: such as mouth odor caused by food, tobacco and metabolic changes, perspiration odor caused by physical exercise, nervousness and foot odor.
  • Stimulates Immune System: Chlorophyll possesses an anti-bacterial action, making it a good inner and outer wound healing agent. (Earl Mindell, Ph. D., author of Live Longer and Feel Better with Vitamins and Minerals).
  • Aids Anemia: Chlorophyll in Wheatgrass Aids in Rebuilding the Bloodstream. Chlorophyll enhances Oxygen transport and increases red blood cell count.
  • Aids Skin Disorders: Drink Wheatgrass for skin problems such as eczema or psoriasis.
  • Aids Hypertension: Works toward normalizing high blood pressure as the juice helps to reduce toxins from the blood. Wheatgrass is high in iron, which helps circulation. Enhances the capillaries.
  • Eases Arthritis: Encapsulates mucous build up, allowing flow of lymphatic fluid. This helps to relieve pressure and allow healing.
Wow, wheatgrass juice can do all that! People might want to have a look at this Wheatgrass Madness webpage for information that is actually true.
The problem with your website, Derek, as we've been telling you over and over and over and as you've been ignoring and ignoring and ignoring, is that you're taking advantage of people unfamiliar with science by making it appear to them that there is scientific support for your health claims about wheatgrass juice when there is little to none.
Oh, and about this from your previous message:
Derek writes:
If the intent was truly to enter discussion where all interested parties could see and participate, it would never have left this forum. The behaviour moderated on our forum is behaviour that is also contradictory to the rules of etiquette here at EvC.
So what you're really upset about is that when you came here and made bogus claims, people called you on them. You would like to rely upon politeness to keep people from calling attention to your misrepresentations. In your view of morality is it evidently worse to call attention to a misrepresentation than to make one.
We do have a set of Forum Guidelines here at EvC Forum, and one of them is this one:
  1. Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
So go ahead, Derek, follow our Forum Guidelines and support the claims about wheatgrass juice enhancing oxygen transport, increasing red blood cell count, preventing tooth decay, allowing flow of lymphatic fluid, and all the rest.
A lot of mumbo-jumbo, Derek, and no research.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by DynamicGreens, posted 08-16-2007 1:14 PM DynamicGreens has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 79 of 101 (416572)
08-16-2007 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by DynamicGreens
08-16-2007 1:14 PM


Re: Not lying?
Hi Derek,
I was reading the early posts in this thread and have discovered that it's a font of information about wheatgrass juice. I was particularly taken by the details about Ann Wigmore, so since you devote an entire pate at your website to Wigmore's claims, let's examine Ms. Wigmore a bit.
The story of Ann Wigmore is at so many websites that I'm not going to cite any - they all contain nearly identical text. Just type "wigmore massachusetts wheatgrass attorney general" into Google and you'll get lots of hits. My information comes from this.
Wigmore was not a medical doctor. She never had any medical training, and she never did any medical research. She claimed to have a Doctor of Divinity degree from the College of Divine Metaphysics in Indianapolis. She believed in astrology, and her wheatgrass claims were based upon the Biblical tale of Nebuchadnezzar recovering from insanity by eating grass for several years.
Given that scientific studies are the only way to verify such claims, and given that no such studies have ever been done, and given that Wigmore's claims give the appearance of being scientific and thus communicate a false impression about the scientific support for wheatgrass juice health claims, shouldn't your webpage of Wigmore's claims (More Potential Benefits From Wheatgrass Juice) be removed?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by DynamicGreens, posted 08-16-2007 1:14 PM DynamicGreens has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 80 of 101 (416591)
08-16-2007 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by DynamicGreens
08-16-2007 12:49 PM


Re: Well, I'm in for now
quote:
The fact is that we do not lie to the public.
OK, so can you explain how "denatured" (changed) food is not good to eat, like it says on your website?
If you tell people that "denatured" food isn't good to eat, but you aren't willing to explain the reason you tell people this, it really does appear that you are making stuff up in order to get people to buy your product.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by DynamicGreens, posted 08-16-2007 12:49 PM DynamicGreens has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by DynamicGreens, posted 08-18-2007 11:27 AM nator has not replied

  
DynamicGreens
Junior Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 11
From: Toronto, ON
Joined: 08-12-2007


Message 81 of 101 (416891)
08-18-2007 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by nator
08-16-2007 9:04 PM


Re: Well, I'm in for now
Hi nator,
Percy has decided to take up the cause by moving the discussion to our forum. I certainly respect your opinion and questions but don't have the time to respond on both sides.
In addition, I don't really have anything more to add here. My belief is based on observations and experience and I know that this doesn't measure up on EvC by the stated intention of the site and by the very words that I just used.
The posts here have been great food for thought.
Cheers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by nator, posted 08-16-2007 9:04 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 82 of 101 (418954)
08-31-2007 10:03 AM


Bump for Percy
Hey, Percy, have you been over to DynamicGreens recently?
A few things have changed.

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Percy, posted 08-31-2007 10:25 AM nator has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 83 of 101 (418964)
08-31-2007 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by nator
08-31-2007 10:03 AM


Re: Bump for Percy
Whoa! New research!
I just got back from vacation and am catching up, I'll take a more detailed look later.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by nator, posted 08-31-2007 10:03 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by nator, posted 09-21-2007 8:18 AM Percy has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 84 of 101 (423321)
09-21-2007 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Percy
08-31-2007 10:25 AM


Re: Bump for Percy
Percy, have you had a chance to catch up with our buddy Derek?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Percy, posted 08-31-2007 10:25 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Percy, posted 09-21-2007 8:25 AM nator has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 85 of 101 (423323)
09-21-2007 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by nator
09-21-2007 8:18 AM


Re: Bump for Percy
I read the new citations, but I've run out of time for any more than that.
It was Derek's repetitive marketing-style posts that ignored our points with an almost zombie-like persistence that originally got me going. I've calmed down now. There are a million flim-flam men out there and only one of me.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by nator, posted 09-21-2007 8:18 AM nator has not replied

  
jaredjb
Junior Member (Idle past 5272 days)
Posts: 2
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 86 of 101 (529976)
10-11-2009 1:05 PM


Wheatgrass and Science
There's nutritional study that was published by Crop and Food Research NZ that shows what's in Wheatgrass. There are a variety of vitamins, minerals, enzymes, and then there's chlorophyll. It's a good study. You can find the results here: Wheat Grass Nutritional Analyses.
You can also learn more about what's in Wheatgrass by visiting the Wheatgrass Health Benefits Page at Wheatgrass Place.

Jared Balis
Wheatgrass Place
http://www.WheatgrassPlace.com

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Coragyps, posted 10-11-2009 2:09 PM jaredjb has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 725 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 87 of 101 (529985)
10-11-2009 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by jaredjb
10-11-2009 1:05 PM


Re: Wheatgrass and Science
Hi, jaredib! Welcome to EvC!
I went to your page, and things did not start off too well. The first bullet point there says
Because the chlorophyll molecule is nearly identical to the hemoglobin molecule....
This is laughably wrong. Chlorophyll refers to one of several pigments with a molecular weight of around 900 daltons; hemoglobin is a protein with a molecular weight of 75 times that. Hemoglobin does incorporate heme, a family of iron-containing pigments that are "cousins" to chlorophyll, but the two are not at all "nearly identical." Heme B, for example, has a molecular weight of 616.
And I'll bet that Bermuda grass would have a very similar set of analytical results to those the Kiwi company gives for wheatgrass. Heck, rice stems may give you all that and will provide a lot more silica!
Edited by Coragyps, : tpyo....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by jaredjb, posted 10-11-2009 1:05 PM jaredjb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by jaredjb, posted 10-11-2009 5:05 PM Coragyps has replied

  
jaredjb
Junior Member (Idle past 5272 days)
Posts: 2
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 88 of 101 (530001)
10-11-2009 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Coragyps
10-11-2009 2:09 PM


Wheatgrass and Science
While it is true that this is an oversimplified statement (for ease of understanding), it is also true that hemoglobin and chlorophyll both contain a similar ring structure, with different central ions. Yes there is controversy surrounding this claim. If you feel the need to attack that, or any other bullet point again, I invite you to do so.
Jared Balis
http://www.WheatgrassPlace.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Coragyps, posted 10-11-2009 2:09 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Coragyps, posted 10-11-2009 6:26 PM jaredjb has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 101 (530006)
10-11-2009 6:13 PM


Ann Wigmore Institute
The Ann Wigmore Institute in Puerto Rico uses wheat grass along with other natural regimes for rejuvinating health. Her methodology has benefited thousands including terminal cancer victims etc. If the US would apply a fraction of the proposed health care billions to things like this there would be no health care crisis at all.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Coragyps, posted 10-11-2009 6:31 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 725 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 90 of 101 (530009)
10-11-2009 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by jaredjb
10-11-2009 5:05 PM


Re: Wheatgrass and Science
There's nothing there to set wheatgrass apart from a thousand other potential sources of vitamin A, or vitamin C, or of selenium. The analysis from New Zealand reports "data better that assertion.
Edited by Coragyps, : addition

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by jaredjb, posted 10-11-2009 5:05 PM jaredjb has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jacortina, posted 10-11-2009 7:14 PM Coragyps has not replied
 Message 93 by Buzsaw, posted 10-11-2009 10:57 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
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