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Author Topic:   Christianity: For entertainment purposes only?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 64 (468229)
05-28-2008 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Brian
05-28-2008 2:19 PM


Re: M'lud?
If you are at a 'psychic night' and someone is claiming to give you a message from a dead relative and doesn't state that the information is for information purposes only, then who do you inform about this criminal offence?

If they aren't charging you for it then it isn't a Commercial Practice and it wouldn't be covered by the Directive.


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 Message 15 by Brian, posted 05-28-2008 2:19 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3509 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 17 of 64 (468234)
05-28-2008 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by New Cat's Eye
05-28-2008 2:47 PM


Re: M'lud?
I've never been to a free psychic night.

I don't think you can charge, say £15 for a ticket, then give a reading without making the entertainment pronouncement, can't be as easy as that.

But if Spiritualist churches, which is an established religion, APPEARS to be getting discriminated against here.

Would Spiritualist churches be exempt if they just asked for voluntary donations?


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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 64 (468235)
05-28-2008 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Brian
05-28-2008 3:08 PM


I've never been to a free psychic night.

I don't think you can charge, say £15 for a ticket, then give a reading without making the entertainment pronouncement, can't be as easy as that.

If they're charging then its a Commercial Practice and, according to this Directive, they should be informing people that its for entertainmen only.

But if Spiritualist churches, which is an established religion, APPEARS to be getting discriminated against here.

Would Spiritualist churches be exempt if they just asked for voluntary donations?

I don't know. But it seems like it could work. If they weren't "Commercial Practices".


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VirtuousGuile
Junior Member (Idle past 4332 days)
Posts: 17
Joined: 05-28-2008


Message 19 of 64 (468366)
05-29-2008 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Brian
05-28-2008 9:59 AM


Self-Righteous Christians???
Well, the onus should now be on Christian churches to prove that they are not misleading the people that they give Bibles and help to.

Being that Britain is the colonial home of New Zealand(YAY!!!) I would be interested in who does the social work over there.

A common charge against Christians is that they only talk about their faith rather than living it. Thus Self-Righteous Christians. But the one thing that keeps my mind in check if I near that charge now is that in New Zealand about 70% percent of the social welfare work is done by Christians.This amazed me as they are a minority of our population.

My question to you Brian is what do you do to help people?


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Replies to this message:
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VirtuousGuile
Junior Member (Idle past 4332 days)
Posts: 17
Joined: 05-28-2008


Message 20 of 64 (468368)
05-29-2008 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
05-28-2008 7:18 AM


Rubbish
Under the 1951 Fraudulent Mediums Act, prosecutors had to prove that the psychic, medium or faith healer had intended to be fraudulent in order to secure a conviction.

But under the EU Unfair Commercial Practices Directive the onus is now on the person providing the service to prove that they did not intentionally mislead their customers.

This is directly affecting Spiritualist churches in the UK, who now have to inform their congregations that everything they read of hear at their Church is “for entertainment purposes only”.

Even if this Litz did publish this they would be abnormal or at least there would be faiths where it would not be.

Secondly, they only need to show that they were not misleading the person. Or rather that they believed that the person would be healed.

In New Zealand a bartender is not allowed to serve an 'intoxicated person'. Yet it happens regularly every week. Point is as long as the bartender says that in my judgment he wasn't then he is sweet.

Prove it.

Certainly gold diggers will go after Spiritual Healers.

The stats show that this improves peoples recovery rate.


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Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3509 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 21 of 64 (468369)
05-29-2008 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by VirtuousGuile
05-29-2008 5:10 AM


Re: Self-Righteous Christians???
Apart from being a teacher at a large secondary school in Scotland, I help out once a week at a local community centre to assist adults with their literacy and numeracy skills. I also have a Bible Study group at University where I help undergraduates to study the Bible and help with their coursework. I also help my ex students via email with their continuing studies. I have three different charities that I donate various amounts to every month. I also help out 3 lunch hours per week at the school's pupil support dept, and I run a successful archaeology club.

The secodnary school teaching I get paid for, everything else I do because I want to.

Christians help people because they want a reward when they die, I do it because I care about people and I know that sometimes a little bit of help can get you on the road to where you want to go.


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Brian
Member (Idle past 3509 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 22 of 64 (468372)
05-29-2008 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by VirtuousGuile
05-29-2008 5:16 AM


Re: Rubbish
Secondly, they only need to show that they were not misleading the person.

How would a psychic medium prove that they weren't misleading a client? How can they prove that they get messages from dead people?

This is my point. If psychics have to prove that what they offer is genuine then why don't Christian ministers? If psychics need to provide a disclaimer that what they provide is for 'entertainment purposes only', then why shouldn't ministers provide the same disclaimer?

When a minister takes £50 donation or blessing fo rhis church for providing a funeral service, then why shouldn't that minister have the burden of proof that your loved one is indeed safe in the arms of Jesus? At funerals, Christian ministers always go on about Jesus victory over death, well let them proove this victory or make the statement "Jesus rose from the dead so that we can have eternal life, however this information if for entertainment purposes only".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by VirtuousGuile, posted 05-29-2008 5:16 AM VirtuousGuile has responded

Replies to this message:
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VirtuousGuile
Junior Member (Idle past 4332 days)
Posts: 17
Joined: 05-28-2008


Message 23 of 64 (468378)
05-29-2008 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Brian
05-29-2008 6:12 AM


Yes how would you convince a jury?
Firstly, Brian good for you. Sadly my experience is that you are an exception. I was hoping for a positive response.

How would a psychic medium prove that they weren't misleading a client? How can they prove that they get messages from dead people?

They have to prove that were not misleading. Essentially based on subjective interpretation.(that is if my understanding of the amendment is complete)

This is my point. If psychics have to prove that what they offer is genuine then why don't Christian ministers? If psychics need to provide a disclaimer that what they provide is for 'entertainment purposes only', then why shouldn't ministers provide the same disclaimer?

Once again they can only be prosecuted if found guilty of misleading. As in my case of the N.Z. bartender they have to admit that they served a person who they believed to be intoxicated otherwise prosecution is useless(p.s. no one has ever been charged under the law because you cannot prosecute - was he drunk 'well I didn't think so'...)

My point is that it will be difficult to prosecute under this law.

[qs]When a minister takes £50 donation or blessing fo rhis church for providing a funeral service, then why shouldn't that minister have the burden of proof that your loved one is indeed safe in the arms of Jesus? At funerals, Christian ministers always go on about Jesus victory over death, well let them proove this victory or make the statement "Jesus rose from the dead so that we can have eternal life, however this information if for entertainment purposes only".[/ps]

Now I don't understand U.K. economics nor the particulars of the case, nor the particulars of what that money was used for. My experience people in ministry is that they do not get paid a lot in fact it is a joke.

A relevant issue regardless is this. Do you get paid teacher? Teaching is a good service that is required why do I pay taxes or school fees to pay you teach my kids? You've gotta eat too buddy, so does a minister.

Edited by VirtuousGuile, : No reason given.


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Brian
Member (Idle past 3509 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 24 of 64 (468386)
05-29-2008 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by VirtuousGuile
05-29-2008 7:09 AM


Re: Yes how would you convince a jury?
Once again they can only be prosecuted if found guilty of misleading.

This WAS the OLD law. Now the onus is on the psychic to prove they aren't misleading.

I can only really comment on the wages of Church of Scotland ministers, who get around £23k a year plus free accomodation, which is usually a rather large manse.

Not a bad living for providing a product that you cannot prove exists!

Although this thread is partly tongue in cheek, when you stand back and think about it, what other industry would get away with being paid to represent something that probably doesn't exist, and if it doesn't your clients have no way of compensation! :laugh:

Edited by Brian, : added more info


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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 64 (468657)
05-30-2008 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Brian
05-28-2008 9:59 AM


Re: Church Charges?
Brian writes:

I am seriously considering reporting the next Christian preacher who stops me in the street and rattles a collection tin under my nose, then goes on about Jesus. I will play along, get their contact details, then report them to the police for breaking the law. Then we will see how the courts deal with it.

This shows how out of touch with reality you are. Here in America that just doen't happen on the streets so far as I am aware. Is that what they do in Scotland? What freedom you must enjoy over there. :D


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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 Message 7 by Brian, posted 05-28-2008 9:59 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 1788 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 26 of 64 (468659)
05-30-2008 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Brian
05-29-2008 7:47 AM


Re: Yes how would you convince a jury?
what other industry would get away with being paid to represent something that probably doesn't exist, and if it doesn't your clients have no way of compensation!

Alternative healing practitioners? If it doesn't work, your patient is dead, and therefore unlikely to press charges...


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Brian
Member (Idle past 3509 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 27 of 64 (468673)
05-31-2008 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Buzsaw
05-30-2008 9:55 PM


Re: Church Charges?
This shows how out of touch with reality you are.

Can you explain how I can be out of touch with reality when the thing I described happens all the time????????

Here in America that just doen't happen on the streets so far as I am aware.

So it could indeed be YOU that's out of touch with reality? perhaps it doesn't happen on your streets, perhaps it does, but your TV evangelists sure are raking in tens of millions of dollars from the gullible American public. Now THAT deosn't happen in Scotland.

Is that what they do in Scotland?

A tiny majority do Buzz. I perhaps see it more because Glasgow is such a big city, and the uni seems to be a happy hunting ground for some Christian and other religious groups.

What freedom you must enjoy over there.

Yes, we have the freedom to tell the morons where to stick their collection boxes as well.

But, depending on how I feel, I will have a chat with them, and I havent yet spoken to one that has a clue about the history and development of their faith. In fact, it is frequently very embarrassing at how little they actually do know about anything to do with their faith.

However, there's no Scottish Benny Hinn or Peter Popoff or any of those other obvious fakes that crazy Americans give millions of dollars to.

Popoff actually gets caught cheating, goes bankrupt, and now moronic Americans are giving him millions of dollars again! What a place to live, it must be like living inside a fairytale book.


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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 64 (468679)
05-31-2008 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Brian
05-31-2008 3:39 AM


Re: Church Charges?
Brian writes:

So it could indeed be YOU that's out of touch with reality? perhaps it doesn't happen on your streets, perhaps it does, but your TV evangelists sure are raking in tens of millions of dollars from the gullible American public. Now THAT deosn't happen in Scotland.

You said on the streets where you can't avoid them. Now you're changing your gripe/rant to evangelists who you can avoid if you don't like their message or collection plates to support their work. My response was regarding street preachers poking collection plates in your face. Isn't that what you said? I'm not aware of any of that going on any place in America. Even if they preach on the streets, they just don't ask for money after their message. That wasn't the way they did it in the old days either.

Back in about 1951 when a late teen youth I went down to work at the mission on skid row with our church group in Minneapolis where we urged the drunks and others on skid row into the mission, gave them a message, SOME FOOD, a bed for the night if they wished, clothes, etc, never ever asking them for a penny. Church folks and friends of the mission paid for it all voluntarily.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Brian, posted 05-31-2008 3:39 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4050 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 29 of 64 (468690)
05-31-2008 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Brian
05-31-2008 3:39 AM


Re: Church Charges?
Brian writes:

So it could indeed be YOU that's out of touch with reality? perhaps it doesn't happen on your streets, perhaps it does, but your TV evangelists sure are raking in tens of millions of dollars from the gullible American public. Now THAT deosn't happen in Scotland.


Oh, to be Celtic and pure in Scotland!
Bring on the bagpipes and put on the wode!

—HM


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SqU1r3
Junior Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 6
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Joined: 05-31-2008


Message 30 of 64 (468696)
05-31-2008 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Brian
05-28-2008 12:26 PM


RE: Offerings
Brian, the Bible itself calls for tithes, 10%,etc...I'm sure you're aware of this.
It's not enforced though, my father in particular used to struggle trusting Him with our finances and thus did not give much toward the Church.
That was a while ago, today he gives of his earnings and is the better for it.
Note, we are not wealthy, far from it, yet we are relatively content.
Besides, all is the LoRD's anyways, so it's fully within his "rights" to ask for a little back. :D


Sometimes even to live is an act of courage. —Seneca

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 Message 11 by Brian, posted 05-28-2008 12:26 PM Brian has responded

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