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Author Topic:   Has EvC changed your beliefs?
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 142 of 223 (329290)
07-06-2006 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by robinrohan
07-02-2006 1:18 PM


quote:
That seems strange to me. If I did not think I was right, I would change my mind and think some other way. Everyone thinks they are right.
I think that I am probably right about the things I think I'm right about.
But I think the difference is that I am willing to consider changing anything at all about what I think is correct, given the appropriate impetus.
Everyone does think they are right, but most people are unwilling to entertain any notion that they could be wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by robinrohan, posted 07-02-2006 1:18 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by robinrohan, posted 07-06-2006 2:57 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 143 of 223 (329293)
07-06-2006 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by iano
07-05-2006 9:02 AM


quote:
Christianity is very upbeat.
Hahaha!
No it isn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by iano, posted 07-05-2006 9:02 AM iano has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 144 of 223 (329296)
07-06-2006 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by iano
07-06-2006 8:50 AM


Well I know some one who was raised in some sort of hell fire guilt tripping Christian church. He has converted happily to his wife's Jewish faith. I (He?) finds it a relief from the Christia vision he was raised with.
quote:
Doctor: "You have terminal intestinal cancer and are going to die a slow, painful death"
Patient "I don't like the sounds of that think I'll get a second opinion"
Some time later....
New Age herbalist "You don't have cancer you have an irritated bowl due to toxin build up - take these herbs and all will be well
Patient: "Good news indeed, I'm not going to die!"
Of course, any disinterested observer can actually observe the outcome of this scenario, and many others just like it, compile the data, and conclude that real doctors tend to have a much higher rate of accuracy of prognosis and treatment compared to herbalist quacks.
So, the reason rational people tend to trust doctors is because of the observable results.
Seems to me that you got your analogy backwards.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 8:50 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 6:36 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 166 of 223 (329666)
07-07-2006 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by robinrohan
07-06-2006 2:57 PM


Everyone does think they are right, but most people are unwilling to entertain any notion that they could be wrong.
quote:
Except for this minority which includes you. How nice for you.
Everyone is unwilling to do this to some degree, of course.
Not everyone has a professional scientist as a spouse and a whole lot of friends who are professional scientists who have beaten most of those tendencies out of me.
So no, it's not nice being me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by robinrohan, posted 07-06-2006 2:57 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by robinrohan, posted 07-07-2006 6:34 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 183 of 223 (329803)
07-08-2006 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by iano
07-06-2006 6:46 PM


quote:
Now when your told you're blind to something, do you accept that maybe the person telling you has a point?
Well, if that person is talking to me, I run what they are saying through my handy, dandy Bullshit Detector.
You should really think about getting one, iano.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 6:46 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by iano, posted 07-08-2006 6:51 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 185 of 223 (329805)
07-08-2006 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by GDR
07-07-2006 11:48 PM


Re: Changes to what I believe
quote:
The other point I'd make is, that my experience with YEC's is by and large positive. The ones I have met are bringing up their kids in a loving environment, and basically just get on with their life like the vast majority of people. As much as I find science and the minimal knowledge I have of it fascinating, I don't think it really impacts one's life if they wish to believe that the Earth is 6000 years old.
Hey, if the religious people want to teach their kids that modern science is all wrong and that a pre-scientific religious book from 2000 years ago is factually true, that's fine with me.
But you forget that these are the same people who have been working very hard, for decades now, to get their religious view taught in US public schools.
They do NOT want to keep to themselves. They want to force everyone's children to be as ignorant of modern science as their's are.
From a wider perspective, it DOES impact everyone's life if a significant number of people believe that the Earth is 6000 years old and all of the other stuff that an YEC believes about nature.
If these people can believe such baseless things simply because their religious instructors required it of them, then they are that much easier to manipulate and be told what to believe by political leaders, as well. Unquestioning obedience and loyalty are valued much more than critical inquiry and doubt in the YEC camp, as is amply demonstrated here.
Lastly, our world is based upon education, science and technology. I do not believe it to be good for a populace to remain ignorant in such a world. We are falling behind in the US in such fields as it is, and the Dover school board case tells me that the YEC's remain determined to keep us from catching up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by GDR, posted 07-07-2006 11:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by GDR, posted 07-08-2006 10:55 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 186 of 223 (329806)
07-08-2006 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-08-2006 1:14 AM


quote:
I also have learned that to come from the point of view that science will reveal the truth as some believe here, is a falicy.
What do you mean by "truth"?
quote:
The idea of science is great but you can't escape the influence of the source.
What is this "source" of science you speak of?
quote:
There comes a point when one can anal-ise the feeling right out of music. It loses it's meaning.
I disagree.
The meaning never left the music just because it has been analysed.
The meaning of the music is subjective for each individual, anyway, so for some people, the music may never have had any meaning in the first place.
But anyway, this is a view that is common but I have such a hard time understanding why people hold it.
Why, why should the analysis of art (music, paintings, etc) have a detrimental effect upon one's appreciation of it's meaning or beauty?
I have analysed music, film, painings, and drawings in a classroom setting, and this analysis has ALWAYS led to me appreciating the art that much more, because now I understood more of the process by which it was produced.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-08-2006 1:14 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 187 of 223 (329808)
07-08-2006 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by iano
07-08-2006 6:51 AM


quote:
Every detector needs to be calibrated against something absolute in order to ensure the reading on the dial can be trusted. Your calibration cert Miss Schrafinator?
No, this is incorrect.
Calibration of any detector is made to a arbitrary measure, not an absolute one.
My measure is a supremely useful one, invented by us humans, shown over the centuries to give light where before there was the darkness of superstition, fear, ignorance, and myth.
It is the light of rational inquiry.
Like I said, ian, you should really get one.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by iano, posted 07-08-2006 6:51 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by iano, posted 07-08-2006 7:34 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 189 of 223 (329817)
07-08-2006 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by iano
07-08-2006 7:34 AM


Calibration of any detector is made to a arbitrary measure, not an absolute one.
quote:
Your right: quasi-absolute, pseudo-absolute, subjective, open to re-definition.
Yes, but only inasmuch as it is shown to to not be useful for it's intended purpose will anything in my detector need to be changed.
My measure is a supremely useful one, invented by us humans, shown over the centuries to give light where before there was the darkness of superstition, fear, ignorance, and myth.
quote:
myth and superstition were also invented by humans.
You are now saying that God was invented by humans?
That is truly surprising.
quote:
Useful to them as yours is to you now. Different calibration certs - same problem
Not as useful to them, ian.
Sacrificing virgins to the volcano god was not useful for what they were hoping to accomplish, but studying volcanoes as natural phenomena is.
Praying to the God for rain was not useful for what they were tring to accomplish, but breeding drought-resistant strains of crops and developing irrigation and soil-conservation technology is.
Like I said, ian, you should really get one.
quote:
I've been there. For 38 years remember? I thought it was useful. It sure did work well in areas (still does in fact). But like superstition and myth, it has its limitations. Your a young slip of a thing Schraf. Wait a while.
Of course it has it's limitations.
But they are far fewer than the intellect-strangling limitations of superstition and myth in the way you've depicted and preached yours here, ian.
That is plain to me.
And please, I am a 38 year old woman. Do not patronize me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by iano, posted 07-08-2006 7:34 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by iano, posted 07-08-2006 9:51 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 200 of 223 (329924)
07-08-2006 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by iano
07-08-2006 9:15 AM


quote:
Her photo suggests 28.
Well, thank you so very much!
quote:
Either it was taken a long time ago
Not very, no.
quote:
OR it is heavily photoshopped
Not altered at all, actually, other than cropping out my friend Brad who has his arm around me.
quote:
OR she's doing better for her age than any 38 year old I've ever seen.
Again, thanks.
That photograph was taken in New Orleans at a wedding in March, just a few months before hurricane Katrina, so I would have been 36 in that picture.
quote:
No patronising intended.
It would have been patronizing even if I had been 10 years younger, but I'll cut you a little slack just because I'm so delighted to be mistaken for someone so young.
It actually happens to me all the time. Wanna know my secrets?
1) Never smoked
2) Never did drugs
3) Never tanned
4) Great marriage
5) Lots of sleep
6) Great food and wine are a priority
7) Laughing is a priority
8) No kids

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by iano, posted 07-08-2006 9:15 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by robinrohan, posted 07-08-2006 8:57 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 202 of 223 (329957)
07-08-2006 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by robinrohan
07-08-2006 8:57 PM


quote:
Apparently, you haven't done much.
Yeah, I "missed out" on tanning, smoking, and doing drugs, so now I feel and look 10 years younger than I am.
Of course, because I didn't waste all of the money and time that others chose to, not only do I look 10 years younger than I am, I read a lot, saw a lot of great film, theater, and live music, traveled, learned a lot, ate a hell of a lot of amazing food, etc.etc.etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by robinrohan, posted 07-08-2006 8:57 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by robinrohan, posted 07-08-2006 9:12 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 204 of 223 (329979)
07-08-2006 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by robinrohan
07-08-2006 9:12 PM


quote:
You have a tendency to boast.
How do you know it's a boast?
And besides, you told me "You haven't done anything in your life" in response to my list of "secrets" for how I remain so young-looking.
I provided a list of things I have done in response (as opposed to all of the things I haven't done which appeared on my list), and you call that "boasting".
Whatever, robin. Go pull somebody ele's chain if that's what gets you off.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by robinrohan, posted 07-08-2006 9:12 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by robinrohan, posted 07-08-2006 11:13 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 217 of 223 (331259)
07-12-2006 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by robinrohan
07-08-2006 11:13 PM


sorry, jar, will take this to the other thread.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by robinrohan, posted 07-08-2006 11:13 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by robinrohan, posted 07-12-2006 6:38 PM nator has not replied

  
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