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Author Topic:   Has EvC changed your beliefs?
lfen
Member (Idle past 2789 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 136 of 223 (329085)
07-05-2006 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by iano
07-05-2006 9:02 AM


He is all of these things so its not speaking out of both sides of my mouth. All three attributes need to be accounted for in one whole

Well I know some one who was raised in some sort of hell fire guilt tripping Christian church. He has converted happily to his wife's Jewish faith. I finds it a relief from the Christia vision he was raised with.

Now I know less about Judaism than I do Christianity and I don't the fellow that converted well.

I am also of the opinion that the way upbeat Christianity of Jim and Tammy Faye Baker to name one well known representive of a whole upbeat "give me seed money so you can drive Cadillac's with Jesus too" Christianity is high paying con.

I am skeptical about any of these sales techniques, whether it's get rich (monetary or spiritually i.e. get into heaven free) or scare tactics. I'm more interested in ordinary life truths. The Christians who impress me are those who's love in demonstrable in the way they deal with life. This love is not exclusive to Christians though, there are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and even atheists whose lives have it. It's not where they found it that is important to me but that they found it.

lfen

Edited by lfen, : cleared up the ambiguity of "him" by substituting "the fellow that converted"

Edited by lfen, : changed misplaced quote mark


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by iano, posted 07-05-2006 9:02 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 07-05-2006 9:24 PM lfen has not yet responded
 Message 140 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 8:50 AM lfen has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 137 of 223 (329095)
07-05-2006 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by lfen
07-05-2006 9:06 PM


Can I get an Amen?
lfen writes:

The Christians who impress me are those who's love in demonstrable in the way they deal with life. This love is not exclusive to Christians though, there are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and even atheists whose lives have it. It's not where they found it that is important to me but that they found it.

Preach the Gospel Brother, preach the GOSPEL.

It is not about death, it is about LIFE.

It really is that simple.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by lfen, posted 07-05-2006 9:06 PM lfen has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Larni, posted 07-06-2006 7:59 AM jar has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 138 of 223 (329242)
07-06-2006 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by jar
07-05-2006 9:24 PM


Re: Can I get an Amen?
Jar writes:

It is not about death, it is about LIFE.

I apprehended that life was just the precusor to a greatly longer 'Eternal Life' in heaven.

Don't xians believe this 'life' is about doing Yahweh's work and getting into heaven?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 07-05-2006 9:24 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 8:36 AM Larni has not yet responded
 Message 141 by jar, posted 07-06-2006 9:20 AM Larni has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 139 of 223 (329250)
07-06-2006 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Larni
07-06-2006 7:59 AM


Re: Can I get an Amen?
Preach the Gospel! Well almost...

I apprehended that life was just the precusor to a greatly longer 'Eternal Life' in heaven.

Finite starters inserted into an infinite meal. Everyone is sat at a table - Christian or no. Some tables are at the Ritz and others at McDonalds.

Don't xians believe this 'life' is about doing Yahweh's work and getting into heaven?

Living in relationship with God and all that that entails - its not all work you know. There's time for play and plain old fun too. There is no "about getting into heaven" That'll come when it comes - sooner or later. Dead cert.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Larni, posted 07-06-2006 7:59 AM Larni has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 140 of 223 (329254)
07-06-2006 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by lfen
07-05-2006 9:06 PM


Well I know some one who was raised in some sort of hell fire guilt tripping Christian church. He has converted happily to his wife's Jewish faith. I (He?) finds it a relief from the Christia vision he was raised with.

Doctor: "You have terminal intestinal cancer and are going to die a slow, painful death"
Patient "I don't like the sounds of that think I'll get a second opinion"

Some time later....

New Age herbalist "You don't have cancer you have an irritated bowl due to toxin build up - take these herbs and all will be well

Patient: "Good news indeed, I'm not going to die!"

Now I know less about Judaism than I do Christianity and I don't (know?) the fellow that converted (all that?) well.

Judaism is a(nother) works based Religion

I am also of the opinion that the way upbeat Christianity of Jim and Tammy Faye Baker to name one well known representive of a whole upbeat "give me seed money so you can drive Cadillac's with Jesus too" Christianity is high paying con.

I don't know them myself but there are plenty of shysters out there. A fool and his money are easily parted.

The Christians who impress me are those who's love in demonstrable in the way they deal with life. This love is not exclusive to Christians though, there are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and even atheists whose lives have it. It's not where they found it that is important to me but that they found it.

Fair enough.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by lfen, posted 07-05-2006 9:06 PM lfen has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by nator, posted 07-06-2006 10:22 AM iano has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 141 of 223 (329264)
07-06-2006 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Larni
07-06-2006 7:59 AM


Re: Can I get an Amen?

Jar writes:

It is not about death, it is about LIFE.

I apprehended that life was just the precusor to a greatly longer 'Eternal Life' in heaven.

Don't xians believe this 'life' is about doing Yahweh's work and getting into heaven?

Some Christians do.

Many of us though believe that the afterlife is pretty much a given, most everybody is going to heaven, so it's not a big part of everyday life or the theology.

Frankly, none of us really have a clue about what heaven or hell are, or if they really exist. But we do know about life here on earth, this turn of the wheel, and that is where we believe a persons emphasis should be. The New Testament is filled with examples of Jesus telling folk to just get on with their lives.

Christianity is a religion of life, not death.

Edited by jar, : fix quotebox


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 142 of 223 (329290)
07-06-2006 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by robinrohan
07-02-2006 1:18 PM


quote:
That seems strange to me. If I did not think I was right, I would change my mind and think some other way. Everyone thinks they are right.

I think that I am probably right about the things I think I'm right about.

But I think the difference is that I am willing to consider changing anything at all about what I think is correct, given the appropriate impetus.

Everyone does think they are right, but most people are unwilling to entertain any notion that they could be wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by robinrohan, posted 07-02-2006 1:18 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by robinrohan, posted 07-06-2006 2:57 PM nator has responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 143 of 223 (329293)
07-06-2006 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by iano
07-05-2006 9:02 AM


quote:
Christianity is very upbeat.

Hahaha!

No it isn't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by iano, posted 07-05-2006 9:02 AM iano has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 144 of 223 (329296)
07-06-2006 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by iano
07-06-2006 8:50 AM


Well I know some one who was raised in some sort of hell fire guilt tripping Christian church. He has converted happily to his wife's Jewish faith. I (He?) finds it a relief from the Christia vision he was raised with.

quote:
Doctor: "You have terminal intestinal cancer and are going to die a slow, painful death"
Patient "I don't like the sounds of that think I'll get a second opinion"

Some time later....

New Age herbalist "You don't have cancer you have an irritated bowl due to toxin build up - take these herbs and all will be well

Patient: "Good news indeed, I'm not going to die!"


Of course, any disinterested observer can actually observe the outcome of this scenario, and many others just like it, compile the data, and conclude that real doctors tend to have a much higher rate of accuracy of prognosis and treatment compared to herbalist quacks.

So, the reason rational people tend to trust doctors is because of the observable results.

Seems to me that you got your analogy backwards.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 8:50 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 6:36 PM nator has not yet responded

    
ikabod
Member (Idle past 2604 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 145 of 223 (329297)
07-06-2006 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by iano
07-05-2006 9:02 AM


Christianity is very upbeat. Talk of Hell and damnation and the wrath of God doesn't apply to a Christian

thats back to the good old which bits shall we read today , you can put the case either way depending on which parts of OT and / or NT you pick .... and differing churchs pick differing bits .. this is one of the problems xianity has presenting itself , and its , as if often the case ,those who shout loadest get their view in the publics face ... guess its ture the problem is people ...


This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 223 (329421)
07-06-2006 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by nator
07-06-2006 10:11 AM


Everyone does think they are right, but most people are unwilling to entertain any notion that they could be wrong.

Except for this minority which includes you. How nice for you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by nator, posted 07-06-2006 10:11 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 6:46 PM robinrohan has responded
 Message 166 by nator, posted 07-07-2006 5:40 PM robinrohan has responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 223 (329422)
07-06-2006 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by iano
07-05-2006 9:02 AM


Christianity is very upbeat.

I'd prefer that it wasn't.

ABE: be more realistic that way.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by iano, posted 07-05-2006 9:02 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 148 of 223 (329468)
07-06-2006 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by nator
07-06-2006 10:22 AM


any disinterested observer

There ain't no such thing. Saved (peace with God)/unsaved (enemies of God). An enemy of God is not a disinterested observer. Not by a long shot.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by nator, posted 07-06-2006 10:22 AM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 07-06-2006 6:58 PM iano has responded
 Message 164 by Larni, posted 07-07-2006 3:14 PM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 149 of 223 (329469)
07-06-2006 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by robinrohan
07-06-2006 2:58 PM


I'd prefer that it (Christianity) wasn't.(upbeat) ABE: be more realistic that way.

I meant upbeat from the saved perspective. From any number of angles you care to mention: one of which is "Death? What then?". You'd be amazed at how much fear of death play a role in our lives until the point when there is no need to fear it any longer. That was what struck me very much in the early days

With regard to the unsaved position, Christianity is not upbeat at all. Its worse as worse can be. Far worse than even nihilism can manage to muster.

Worse than ALL vs NOTHING

All Gods Love vs All Gods Wrath is about as extreme as extreme can be.

Take a look at Creation and imagine being on the 'right' and 'wrong' side of that Might. The mind boggles at such a thought - irrespective of which 'side' you happen to inhabit

Mind boggling

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by robinrohan, posted 07-06-2006 2:58 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 150 of 223 (329470)
07-06-2006 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by robinrohan
07-06-2006 2:57 PM


Your in a unique and very unusual position Robin. You can see the blindness inherent in a number of positions time after time. And no matter how much you point it out, otherwise intelligent (and pretty) people keep on walking into the same old trees as if they didn't exist. You can see blindness.

Now when your told you're blind to something, do you accept that maybe the person telling you has a point?

Imagine your Schraf to Faiths RobinRohan.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by robinrohan, posted 07-06-2006 2:57 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by robinrohan, posted 07-07-2006 11:59 AM iano has responded
 Message 179 by robinrohan, posted 07-07-2006 11:24 PM iano has not yet responded
 Message 183 by nator, posted 07-08-2006 6:32 AM iano has responded

  
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