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Author Topic:   Is it experts or "experts"?
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 31 of 39 (260822)
11-18-2005 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
11-18-2005 3:59 AM


Charismaniac writes:
quote:
If one cannot even grasp the concept of salvation and has never experienced such an event, how can they disregard the Bible and the message contained therein?
Since two-thirds of the current population of the planet can grasp the concept of salvation and have managed to experience the event without the Bible and the message contained therein, by what justification do we claim that the Bible has the answer to the question of salvation and how to attain it?
Since the entire planet grasped the concept of salvation and managed to experience the event before the Bible and the message contained therein, by what justification do we claim that the Bible has the answer to the question of salvation and how to attain it?
With billions of people managing to achieve salvation without the Bible, why does anybody think the Bible is the only way to achieve it?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 11-18-2005 3:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 11-18-2005 9:28 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 39 (260883)
11-18-2005 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Rrhain
11-18-2005 4:20 AM


*blink* Welcome back, by the way
quote:
Since two-thirds of the current population of the planet can grasp the concept of salvation and have managed to experience the event without the Bible and the message contained therein, by what justification do we claim that the Bible has the answer to the question of salvation and how to attain it?
I have yet to see salvation---as defined by orthodox theologians--
experienced by two thirds of the planet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Rrhain, posted 11-18-2005 4:20 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Rrhain, posted 11-19-2005 12:57 AM Phat has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 33 of 39 (260938)
11-18-2005 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by RAZD
11-17-2005 10:23 PM


Re: yes incompetence.
Hi, RAZD.
Nice post, good overview: while I agree that...
RAXD writes:
The most popular use of experts is medical. People go to doctors because they know more about sickness and injury than the common joe\jane.
...let me point out that I was referring to the "most prominent public" aspects of expert opinion--paid or partisan speech in adversarial contexts--in order to discuss its caustic effect on confidence in experts.
Having worked in medical institutions for 20 years, I can tell you that people in general do no better at evaluating medical expertness than any other kind.
Quite aside from fringe medicine and fraud (crystals, naturopathy, homeopathy, mircale fad diets, etc., etc.) that, sadly, distract millions from better care, almost no one bothers to check a physician's credentials or even to obtain the limited outcome data publicly available. Opinion shopping often continues until the patient hears what she wants to hear, rather than until a consensus, or a broader understanding of the issues, is reached.
As a patient who has consulted multiple surgeons for multiple procedures over the years, I can report that, as my grandma said, when you go to the shoe store, they sell you shoes. On a related note, I can also report from long inside experience that while physicians generally order tests when they consider them necessary (for diagnosis or self-defense against malpractice claims), most labs get a rising number of normal scans and tests when business is slow... So I would say the negative impact of experts' self-interest on the credibility of expert opinion is pervasive in both public and private spheres.
My subjective sense is that experts received much greater deference in the mid 20th century, and I believe that the marketing of expert opinion as an adversarial commodity, and the failure of the media in general to vet supposed experts, are responsible for much lost esteem.
In Asia, I sometimes functioned as a "consulting expert" to American firms considering investment or wondering why their Asia investments had failed: the qualities required of an expert were often irrelevant to a knowledge or skill base--being from out of town, or being on the scene, or being without connection to anyone in the home office (and thus able to report what's happening on the ground without prejudice), or even being willing and able "to say what I (the executive who retains the expert) want to say but cannot."
Our schools, our media, our experts: all need to do a better job in teaching the public how to evaluate expert opinion. There are many barriers: skepticism of expert independence, resentment of a privileged class, susceptibility to appeals to consequence...but the stakes are high.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 11-17-2005 10:23 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 11-18-2005 8:48 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 34 of 39 (260941)
11-18-2005 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Ben!
11-18-2005 1:17 AM


No, no--thank you
Thanks, Ben. I felt we achieved considerable mutual understanding from that exchange, and I enjoyed it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Ben!, posted 11-18-2005 1:17 AM Ben! has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 35 of 39 (261127)
11-18-2005 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Omnivorous
11-18-2005 11:58 AM


Re: yes incompetence.
My subjective sense is that experts received much greater deference in the mid 20th century, and I believe that the marketing of expert opinion as an adversarial commodity, and the failure of the media in general to vet supposed experts, are responsible for much lost esteem.
I have also seen much greater deference given to {experts in specific fields} in europe, though my experience there is limited.
Perhaps it is the american ego that is also part of the problem eh?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Omnivorous, posted 11-18-2005 11:58 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 36 of 39 (261139)
11-18-2005 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Rrhain
11-18-2005 3:47 AM


Re: Incompetence is not really an issue
welcome back rrhain.
Another, more powerful effect, however, probably comes from cognitive dissonance. If you have a fundamental outlook of how the world is supposed to behave, encountering information that contradicts it is "traumatic." Thus, the information is denied in favor of the core belief.
Yes, throw in denial too ... And one can feed the other as well: incompetence lets the faulty world view exist, the faulty world view says the fields of incompetence are not worthy of study. It becomes self-reinforcing.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Rrhain, posted 11-18-2005 3:47 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Rrhain, posted 11-19-2005 1:03 AM RAZD has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 37 of 39 (261185)
11-19-2005 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
11-18-2005 9:28 AM


Re: *blink* Welcome back, by the way
Charismaniac responds to me:
quote:
I have yet to see salvation---as defined by orthodox theologians--experienced by two thirds of the planet.
Huh? Why is your definition of salvation the one that gets used? The overwhelming majority of the planet doesn't seem to use it. Why that one and none of the others?
That said, just what sort of examinations have you done to show that they haven't achieved it? Please, let us not do the circular reasoning claim that the Bible says only the Bible brings salvation.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 11-18-2005 9:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 38 of 39 (261187)
11-19-2005 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by RAZD
11-18-2005 9:07 PM


Re: Incompetence is not really an issue
Thanks, RAZD. Been fairly busy of late with my plays and such. The Fantasticks had a long run which led into a couple of project management classes and then to Amadeus (playing Mozart for the second time). Haven't had an evening for myself since the beginning of summer. Not sure how long I'll be able to stay this time, either.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by RAZD, posted 11-18-2005 9:07 PM RAZD has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 39 of 39 (266239)
12-06-2005 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Omnivorous
11-16-2005 10:03 AM


me three
I tried for a about 45 mins to find a way to break through "expert" evc talk and short of coming full brand Brad M on, I could not. Looks like it is time for me to do more than be no longer pertinent.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 12-06-2005 10:43 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Omnivorous, posted 11-16-2005 10:03 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
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