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Author Topic:   Nazism
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2830 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 1 of 91 (269452)
12-14-2005 8:39 PM


alright so let's have a good, clean, scholarly debate about the connections between christianity and nazism.

proposition 1: christian support for nazism was restricted to 1)certain rather nasty individuals who had their own separate ideas about the inferiority of other groups (pious the 12); 2) the general public, immaterial of religion, who were swayed by propaganda; 3)default support because of natural opposition to atheist communism.

i imagine i'll be arguing against the following points pink sas so brilliantly charged.

Christians enacted the Holocaust

[link]
But a Nazism as a movement of Christians? Absolutely.

Besides, you cannot avoid the fact that many of the Nazi leaders embraced Christianity, and major churches of Europe embraced Nazism and racism. Try Mosse's Towards the Final Solution. True, many of the Nazi ideas adulterated Christianity with Paganistic philosophy, but the core values and stories of Christianity always remained intact.

Also, even if you manage to separate Christianity entirely from the Nazi leadership, you've got the Christian citizenry rounding people up and putting them into ovens.

The Final Solution would have never succeeded as far as it did without Christianity at its core.


[link]

my suggestion is not that the christians in germany did not have the same culpability as everyone else in the world for not doing anything about the genocide (don't tell me no one knew about it. that's crap.), but, nazi leaders were not christian (in fact quite staunchly so) and thus the christian community as a whole cannot be blamed for this in the same way as the inquisition and the other crap.

if you don't find it on jstor or lexis nexis etc or in a peer-reviewed book (ie from a university press), i don't wanna see it. i don't care what wikipedia says or what your pastor says or what your local jcc says or what the last guy on the travel channel said.

This message has been edited by brennakimi, 12-13-2005 07:20 PM

This message has been edited by brennakimi, 12-14-2005 09:39 AM

This message has been edited by brennakimi, 12-14-2005 11:14 AM

ABE
this book sounds like an interesting read. nyu is fairly decent.

This message has been edited by brennakimi, 12-14-2005 04:37 PM


Replies to this message:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 91 (269453)
12-14-2005 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by macaroniandcheese
12-14-2005 8:39 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3801 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 3 of 91 (269826)
12-15-2005 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by macaroniandcheese
12-14-2005 8:39 PM


this statement seems ludicrous
True, many of the Nazi ideas adulterated Christianity with Paganistic philosophy, but the core values and stories of Christianity always remained intact.

The NAZIs were, in fact, pagan occultists and race supremacists, highly influenced by evolutionary theory. There is virtually no Christian connection.

There may be some Christians in Europe that supported fascism in general in opposition to communism, but NAZIism had it's own separate identity from, say, Franco's fascism in Spain.

What is a larger and more significant angle though to argue for some Christian support of Hitler is the fact he was voted into office and enjoyed the support of the German people, and undoubtedly some of them were Christians, but it's hard to say to what degree Germans were Christian in the sense of devoutly committed to Jesus Christ. Muslims, for example, would argue that all of Western Europe and the US are Christian, but we know that's not really true. There are a lot of Christians and Christian influences, but to claim our nations and soceities are Christian creates a serious misunderstanding of the nature of these societies. The Muslims would say the Christians have pushed porn on the world, but in reality, it is often the Christians trying to restrict pornography.

A similar thing, imo, occured with Hitler. To claim because many Germans were Christians, that somehow NAZIism is related to Christianity is quite absurd.

One other note: one reason probably Germans were willing to accept someone like Hitler and embrace the NAZIs is simply because they restarted the German economy and war machine, and thus offerred protection from Stalin to the East. It's not clear that if we had communism and Stalin at our doorstep, were weakened after a defeat in war, that we would not ourselves here in America back someone dangerous like Hitler....

Oh I forgot, the lefties think we already have someone like that in the White House...:o

This message has been edited by randman, 12-15-2005 10:05 PM


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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 91 (269833)
12-15-2005 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by randman
12-15-2005 10:02 PM


Re: this statement seems ludicrous
To claim because many Germans were Christians, that somehow NAZIism is related to Christianity is quite absurd.

You are right, Randman. Nazism means "survival of the fittest race."


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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 5377 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 5 of 91 (269898)
12-16-2005 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by randman
12-15-2005 10:02 PM


Re: this statement seems ludicrous
Edited out, historical revisionists like holocaust deniers are not worth the bother

This message has been edited by Mammuthus, 12-16-2005 03:13 AM


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1.61803
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 6 of 91 (270029)
12-16-2005 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by randman
12-15-2005 10:02 PM


I have been stationed in Germany twice, both times during the cold war pre 1999. I have personally seen what remains of some of the death camps. I have spoken with Germans who where anywhere from 10 years old to twenty somethings during the height of Hitler's rein.

This is what I gather: 1. The politics of the Natzi party did not represent all of the German peoples beliefs.
2. The "final solution" was motivated by some men who actually believed that the targeted races where subhuman and a liability. Others simply used the mechanism of racism as a way of galvinizing the support of the masses and controlling the rest with fear.

3. The policies of the Natzi party where implimented very quickley and were very efficient. We are really lucky Hitler was a addict and not making good decisions.
4. Those that Believed in the Reich went along. Those that did not, keep they're mouths shut. And those that did not were shot.

Natzis took the guise of Christianity to appeal to the masses, in that they believed as did the KKK in the USA, God has chosen them as the super race.
Some of the writings of Fredrich Neitzche were subverted to support they're "Will to power" regardless of the fact that Neitzche was anti-Christian.
So no I do not think we can blame the Christians for the Natzis. Any more than we can blame the Devil for Hitler.


"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2830 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 7 of 91 (286261)
02-13-2006 6:10 PM


reply to dan
a continuation from dan's post in the barbarity of christianity thread.

Christian qoutes:

-"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

-"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

Non Christian Quotes:

-Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

-10th October, 1941, midday

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

-19th October, 1941, night

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

and there's a million more. he was culturally schitzophrenic. he was neither a christian nor an atheist. he was a nutter.


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Silent H
Member (Idle past 4721 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 8 of 91 (286367)
02-14-2006 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by randman
12-15-2005 10:02 PM


Re: this statement seems ludicrous
The NAZIs were, in fact, pagan occultists and race supremacists, highly influenced by evolutionary theory. There is virtually no Christian connection.

I'll never understand why you overplay your hand.

It is absolutely true that many of the top nazi leaders were involved in occultism. But as far as I know there is no indication that they were whole-hearted practicing paganists. They were eclectic debutantes choosing all sorts of different ideas. For some your statement would make Nancy Reagan, who consulted astrologers, a pagan occultist.

Most continued a belief in Xianity and used it to the same extent as any other occult concept. And more to the point, this occultism was not pervasive among all nazis, or the german public, who actualized plans of those leaders. The general populace seemed to have no problem associating Xianity and those plans.

As far as evolution goes, they had its concepts wrong so there was no influence from that theory. They may have appealed to a strawman, but that's the same thing as saying Bush was influenced by leading scientists when he backed ID.

AntiSemitism was a Xian phenomena, so I am unsure where you see no connection at all. It certainly has no basis in evolution.

{AbE: Whoa, forgot to point out that I do disagree that Xianity was responsible for the holocaust. Lots of Xians were, but not the religion itself as there were Xians who opposed it. However, one could certainly say that the holocaust was not incompatible with Xian theology.}

This message has been edited by holmes, 02-14-2006 01:23 PM


holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 821 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 9 of 91 (286369)
02-14-2006 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by macaroniandcheese
02-13-2006 6:10 PM


Re: reply to dan

Christian qoutes:

-"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

-"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

Non Christian Quotes:

-Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

-10th October, 1941, midday

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

-19th October, 1941, night

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

I could not find one truth in any of those statements.

Given what was done, I don't see how anyone who even knows just a few "red letters" could ever think that the nazis were Christians. You can call yourself anything you want, that doesn't make you it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-13-2006 6:10 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 1006 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 10 of 91 (286378)
02-14-2006 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by randman
12-15-2005 10:02 PM


your position seems ludicrous
The NAZIs were, in fact, pagan occultists and race supremacists, highly influenced by evolutionary theory. There is virtually no Christian connection.

I'm simply confused by this. I can understand some creationists (or even IDists) having this position, but what strikes me as crazy is the contradictions that seem to arise from holding this position.

For example you have said:

randman writes:

They say evolution is observed, and then use the same word to describe the Theory of Evolution, which is not observed.

and

randman writes:

the reason this is a false argument is that the definition of "evolution" under debate is not the idea that change occurs. Creationism is thus equally as much "evolution" under the observed evolution definition as the Theory of Evolution

So surely the Nazis were engaged in 'microevolution' using artificial selection, something creationist farmers had been doing for centuries. On that merit, surely the Nazis were far more influenced by creationists? After all, 'Creationism is thus equally as much "evolution" under the observed evolution definition'.

It seems that when the theory of evolution is defined as observed microevolution you cry foul since that is not the definition of evolution under debate. However, you are happy defining the Nazis extreme microevolution as connected to evolutionary paradigm whilst simultaneously trumpeting creationists who have been involved in microevolution which is fine and observed and not disputed.

You can surely see how this position can be confusing?


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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 4736 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 11 of 91 (286399)
02-14-2006 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by riVeRraT
02-14-2006 7:56 AM


Fallacious
Given what was done, I don't see how anyone who even knows just a few "red letters" could ever think that the nazis were Christians. You can call yourself anything you want, that doesn't make you it.

Sounds like the "no true scotsmen" fallacy to me.

Off-topic: What's up with that avatar dude? Where did that come from? It's freaky!

This message has been edited by SuperNintendo Chalmers, 02-14-2006 09:50 AM


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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2997 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 12 of 91 (286407)
02-14-2006 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
02-14-2006 9:49 AM


Hyperintelligent mice
Off-topic: What's up with that avatar dude? Where did that come from? It's freaky!

It looks like Stuart Little to me.

TTFN,

WK


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3801 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 13 of 91 (286474)
02-14-2006 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Modulous
02-14-2006 8:49 AM


I don't see how you are confused
Frankly, it's bizarre to me how you could be confused. The NAZIs did believe in social darwinism and eugenics, and adopted a race-based ideology/pseudo-religion. Darwinism was an inspiration for that sort of thinking although the master race stuff predated Darwin. They used Darwin though to claim scientific merit for their ideas.

Now, in terms of the issue of creationism/ID versus ToE, there is a need for precise definitions of the term "evolution" in order to be intellectually honest. Evos, by using one term definition interchangeably with another, are not being intellectually honest. It has nothing to do with NAZIism however.

Keep in mind that there is no contradiction as you surmise because along with the idea of creationism and Intelligent Design is the concept of a Designer or God, and so with a higher power to answer to, values are not shaped by purely methodological naturalism, which the NAZIs felt led to their values, and that their values were scientific whereas believing all men are equal in terms of having the same rights, they would argue is not scientific, and is a perversion of truth.

So even though micro-evolution is included in creationism and ID, it is not within the same context as Darwinism.


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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2830 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 14 of 91 (286478)
02-14-2006 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by riVeRraT
02-14-2006 7:56 AM


Re: reply to dan
I could not find one truth in any of those statements.

Given what was done, I don't see how anyone who even knows just a few "red letters" could ever think that the nazis were Christians. You can call yourself anything you want, that doesn't make you it.

did you actually read what i posted?

ABE and i'm really tired of the no-true-scotsman stuff, too.

This message has been edited by brennakimi, 02-14-2006 12:54 PM


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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 4736 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 15 of 91 (286482)
02-14-2006 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by randman
02-14-2006 12:42 PM


Social Darwinism
The NAZIs did believe in social darwinism and eugenics

The right wing of the republican party belives in social darwinism also.

Not sure what your point is?

Keep in mind that there is no contradiction as you surmise because along with the idea of creationism and Intelligent Design is the concept of a Designer or God, and so with a higher power to answer to, values are not shaped by purely methodological naturalism, which the NAZIs felt led to their values, and that their values were scientific whereas believing all men are equal in terms of having the same rights, they would argue is not scientific, and is a perversion of truth.

This has nothing to do with god or religion. It's just another example of group elitism.... "my group is better than yours". Some people use things like "The bell curve" to say whites are smarter than blacks. Some people use the "bible" to say christians are better/more moral than non-believers. People have always used various reasons including science and religion to prove their group is better than others throughout history.

Crusades
Manifest Destiny
Inquisitions
Holocaust
Ethnic Cleansing

etc, etc, etc

I personally think the Nazi's get a bad rap for someone being the worst thing that ever existed. Don't get me wrong; the Nazi's did a lot of bad things (I'm certainly no holocaust denier)...... but there are a lot of other groups that also did a lot of bad things. Stalin and the soviets, Genghis Khan, the persian empire, Americans (eradicating virtually all indigenous people), spanish conquistadors, etc. etc. etc. The Nazis are just another example of a group that did bad things to other people


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