Nazism

Hi Golden ratio. I don't disagree. Technically I agree with you. These people CLAIMED to be Christians, Let me make it clear.But because you're a smart guy, can you see that just because we have to observe this fallacy, doesn't mean they are genuine in their claims to love Christ and be in favour of peace. Can you see that?Should this fallacy mean that any claimant's claims are automatically true?My only problem is the nature of the ignorance, which is a requirement to the qualifier.Our ignorance as to whether someone is genuine, can be overlooked, if we are to say that all Christians, ever, and in other worlds, were definitely Christians. What? Because of there say so? Well then, a Christian means anything you want.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-15-2006 01:36 PM

If you guys are interested, I've proposed a new thread on how we classify people and what method(s) should be used. (I thought your conversation was interesting enough for a new thread )

Thanks for the response Mike.
Yes to do great evil in the name of Christ or anything is against the tenants of the faith. Except that the tenants can be manipulated by the evil doer to justify the means. The men sticking hot pokers up the asses of heretics during the Inquistions were doing in theyre minds the Lords work. Now of course there were some evil men who "claimed" to be men of faith but were actually sadist. But Zealots of all shades of all religions exist. And to categorically deny they are true Muslims, Christians, Mormons or what ever is a case of blatant denial and justification. David Koresh was buggering little girls, David Koresh was such a Christian that he believed he was Christ. He died in his eyes and those of his following a martyr.

I agree. Hence it is generally fallacious. I don't deny it.... and it true that these claimers of Christianity were proved to be evil, while being of 'Christian' persuasion. For all we know though, many thousands have simply lied to get what they really wanted.For example, the person who raped the kids might have always intended to do this, and infact never believed anything to do with the faith. How could he, unless as you state, he justified his actions in his head.You see, I agree GENERALLY but I am very specific. There will be specific exceptions,; there will/have been people who are not Christian, but say they are.If we favour the fallacy, the exception is overlooked. If we dismiss the fallacy, the general justification is overlooked. Therefore, I choose both to observe the fallacy, but to not let the observation remove the belief that I am still ignorant as to their genuine belief, or lack thereof.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-15-2006 02:26 PM

It is about your actions, but not initially. With true repentence, comes true change. Being saved, and believing in Christ is a continuing process, not a one time decision, and then your good to go.

quote:

---

1 John 5:18
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

​

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

​

1 John 3:24
Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

​

1 John 3:16
This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
(Note: it doesn't say kill millions of Jews there)

​

1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

​

1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

​

Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

---

There's a ton more.
There is also another verse, that I can't seem to find, but it was a bout some guys who claimed to know Jesus, but when Jesus spoke to them, he said that he didn't know them.

It doesn't say kill millions of Jews anywhere. According to Hitler, Jews are not our brothers. It isn't murder to kill Jews. Killing Jews is right.In the end though, are you suggesting that if Hitler prayed for forgiveness for his sins, accepted Christ as his saviour and the Lord as his shepherd, that God, the Father, would turn His back? Surely, 'With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.'? For all we know, Hitler was possessed by a demon, and every night in a brief moment of lucidity his soul prayed for forgiveness to the Lord God, and asked that his victims rest peacefully.

You can't go by Hitler's public speeches if you want to know what he really thought. His private utterances in "Table Talk" reveal his true feelings about Christianity. He despised it. He particularly despised Christian ethics. He also had some crude Darwinian ideas.

According to Hitler, not Jesus. Who was he following? Yes it is according to Jesus. Who was he following? cough cough, um no. Absolutly not. In the end he would have been accepted by God. He would have also been judged, and with all sins comes a price. Not everyone is on the same level in heaven. Hitler may in fact be there holding the door for everyone else, and he would be happy about it.Remember to be forgiven means you must forgive everyone yourself. Hitler would have had to have had a big change of heart in order to do that.But really I can't pretend to know what God's plan was in regards to all that, I can only speculate. Could be.
Most of the time, the demon is us.

Just curious, what is the source for the non-christian quotes? Are the from the 'table talk' book. I believe most of them were. This book is supposed to be notes taken at conversations, and transscribed live. It was published a few years after the war ended.The quotes were not written down by Hitler, nor in speaches, but rather a third hand party claimed he said them. Considering that 'table talk' is the only source for them, I am personally skeptical about the validity of that book.If someone has some primary sources , I would be glad to be convinced otherwise.

"Table Talk" is authentic.

honestly, i found it on the intArwebs in a similar context. but considering the studies i've done, i don't find it implausible.

very nice points. i'm sorry he missed the significance of them. in a culture in which you want and are taught to believe that a people are vastly inferior to you, finding justification in your most important book for ridding yourself of them in both easy and reassuring. it's not the aim of the book but anything can be twisted.

Of course this hatred is true of all non-Christians. The Bibles position is that all are enemies of God who are not in Christ. Now of course the level of hatred may vary from inactive (through lack of concern) or very active as you state Hitlers hatred was. Hatred is hatred though. You can only hate Christ or love him. There is no middle ground as far as God is concerned.

You'll have to ask Hitler. Is it? And again, you'll have to ask him, not me. Well, I don't think so, but I'm not Hitler. So its possible that Hitler was a Christian, but did terrible things, for which he sought the forgiveness of the Lord. If the Bible has taught me anything its that a fairly decent amount of time its demons...and given the extent of the death, I think if demons are responsible for anything of the world's ills, it would surely be that.Unless you think man has the capacity for more evil than demons.

Don't forget that Riverrat's points are important; The scriptures are clear on the matter. Not only has a murderer no eternal life in him, even to be angry at his brother is dangerous.Just because Hitler qualified Jews as less than human, doesn't mean Jesus did. Jesus was/is a Jew!RR's point is intact, because Jesus' actions show that JESUS thought his brother or sister was even someone Gentile, as He helped a Roman soldier.By all means claim the NTSF. But Jesus' teachings are clear, and they even back up themselves in other scriptures. They are clear, even if the definition of Christian is anything but clear.If we are true to what the New Testament actually says, then on these terms, a true Christian, according to Jesus, cannot be an evil person, as this is a contradiction of the original historical, according-to-Jesus, definition. Now forgive me for thinking that Jesus knows who his true followers are but who else would know?Just because past Christian claimants have done evil, doesn't mean Jesus didn't mean what he said. Jesus said that many would claim to know him, and he would say, 'depart from me, you workers of iniquity'.If Jesus is real, then this scripture was made for a reason. It means that those that work iniquity, infact are unknown to Jesus. Now how can anyone unknown to Jesus be Christian, in reality? (Good luck with that one)What. Did you think burning witches and justifying evil is suddenly acceptable according to scripture? It never was. It warns in Isaiah, 'woe unto them that have evil for good and good for evil'.Example; Galileo's claims. A good thing, made out as an evil thing.Example; Burning women and bloodletting. An evil thing, looked upon as good.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-16-2006 10:27 AM