Human Rights Violations

Nemesis Juggernaut writes:

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If I was unclear, because I intentionally withheld the motive, I apologize.

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In other words, he was trolling.Do not feed the trolls, people.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Nemesis Juggernaut writes:

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Besides Al Gore is a laundry list of people who backpeddled on WMD's for political gain.

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No, he didn't. Gore has always been against the invasion of Iraq. Do not confuse the campaign for the 2000 election with the 2003 invasion. Just as before, do you seriously think that nothing changed between the two times?Remember, the weapons inspectors were in Iraq. On the very day that Bush announced that he absolutely had to invade Iraq, the weapons inspectors were destroying some missiles that had too large of a range. Bush had to evacuate the inspectors in order to begin his invasion.So out with it, NJ. We'll need the exact quotes, dates, and places. Otherwise, like everything else you have put forward, we'll know that you simply pulled it out of your ass.Do not feed the trolls, people.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Nemesis Juggernaut writes:

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Secondly, please list some of the instances where the Patriot Act violated the civil liberties of Americans so I can get a sense of the distrust you feel.

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We've already been through this, NJ. I gave you plenty of examples.Have you forgotten about the FBI list of illegal "security letters" that were used to spy on Americans? The infiltration of Quakers? Greenpeace? People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals? The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee?Jose Padilla: An American, held for years without counsel, no charges, secret evidence, tortured.Khaled El-Masri: Kidnapped, tortured. Germany has issued arrest warrants for the CIA officials involved.Maher Arar: Kidnapped, tortured. The Canadian government paid reparations due to their connection with the Americans. He remains on the watch list despite no evidence against him and is barred entry to the US.I cannot count the number of Americans who are on the "No Fly" list and cannot get off it because they are not allowed to challenge it. That's secret information.The post where I first brought this up was directed specifically to you, NJ. As I said then, "Tell ya what, n_j, you let me do to you what these laws allow and we'll see if you feel 'intruded upon.'"Do not feed the trolls, people.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Nemesis Juggernaut writes:

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I'm still unclear on why you or anyone thinks our human rights are more in danger today than, say, ten years ago.

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(*blink!*)You did not just say that, did you? You asked this before and you were given a list of examples.Have you forgotten about the FBI list of illegal "security letters" that were used to spy on Americans? The infiltration of Quakers? Greenpeace? People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals? The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee?Jose Padilla: An American, held for years without counsel, no charges, secret evidence, tortured.Khaled El-Masri: Kidnapped, tortured. Germany has issued arrest warrants for the CIA officials involved.Maher Arar: Kidnapped, tortured. The Canadian government paid reparations due to their connection with the Americans. He remains on the watch list despite no evidence against him and is barred entry to the US.I cannot count the number of Americans who are on the "No Fly" list and cannot get off it because they are not allowed to challenge it. That's secret information.Does kidnap and torture not mean anything to you?

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Has a single case yielded any evidence that the PA violated their civil rights?

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Yes. Those exigency letters from the FBI? They were all thrown out. The FBI gave a list of all their illegal activities. When the FBI tells you that they were violating the civil rights of Americans, isn't that sufficient to claim that they were doing so?

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Does anyone really know what the PA actually is, as opposed to what they want to believe it is?

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Yes.The question is: Do you?Kidnap and torture, NJ. Is that really OK in your mind?Take the confirmation hearings for Mukasey. He couldn't bring himself to say that waterboarding is torture even though it has been declared such for over 300 years starting at least in the condemnation of the Inquisition. The United States has prosecuted people for engaging in waterboarding. It is defined as torture by treaty, case law, and statute.Does that not mean anything to you?

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Let's think about this objectively. If I'm an American too, why would I want to trick you about other people's civil rights to enable me to get rid of my own?

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Because you're scared. You seem to think that your liberty makes you vulnerable. Thus, in an attempt to assuage that fear, you try to make other people scared of things that happen in other countries.

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I don't know a single person that wants their civil rights stripped.

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And yet here you are, arguing for precisely that.

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In fact, they come here in mass droves to ensure they get that freedom which is available to them here.

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Unless you get declared an "enemy combatant" and are then kidnapped and tortured.Do not feed the trolls, people.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Nemesis Juggernaut writes:

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People tend to do odd things when they don't have any real problems.

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Because waterboarding is just a "fraternity prank," right?

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They're just waiting for the CIA to come kick down their door, and yet, the CIA never does.

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Tell that to the people who have been kidnapped and tortured, NJ. There are members of the CIA who cannot go to Germany now because there are warrants out for their arrest.Kidnapped and tortured, NJ.

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Question is, how many would from first hand experience?

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Pretty much every single one of us, NJ. The phone companies turned over your phone records to the feds without a warrant. Your civil rights have been violated.How many people are on the Do Not Fly list, NJ? Senator Ted Kennedy and Representative John Lewis are on it, NJ.Don't feed the trolls, people.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

So you think we should become a British colony again and pay homage to the Queen? Among other notable tensions, what really kicked off this conflict was over a land dispute. That land just so happens to be right where you live. Since its totally unjustified, will you be moving? Agreed. Seems reasonable. Eh... Let the UN fight its own wars. Agreed. Rescuing American hostages is stupid and unjustified? I'm glad that you weren't president then, or that I was a hostage. I think it was probably unjustified. Agreed. Should I even ask? Nah.... Don't wanna drag it OT. Definitely poorly executed. If Just Cause was unjustified, then this should be unjustified on similar grounds. Possibly? I think the seventh attack on the US without any retaliatory measures, this time on a massive scale, on our own soil, is a pretty good reason for military action. That's not what I asked you. I asked for specific instances where the Patriot Act is infringing on the civil rights of its citizens.The biggest issue that I've seen people take with the PA, is the warrantless searches claim. So I thought perhaps we could go over it. I thought we might go over the Legalese. If you have any other specific objections outlined in the Patriot Act, feel free to add.

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“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

It was the US who brought the matter to the UN security council. While it was a UN action it was instigated by the US (though I don't doubt that if the US didn't bring it up some one else, likely the UK would have).
From wiki:

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Live every week like it's Shark Week!
Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

Re: Operation Enduring Freedom; I suppose you have some support for either Afghanistan or the Taliban attacking the US?Comparing Just Cause and Somalia; in Just Cause we invaded without looking at diplomatic options and with no indication that the students were under any threat. In Somalia we sent in military ONLY as security forces for humanitarian food distribution. The goal was not to displace war lords until the food distribution was disrupted and Belgian (IIRC) forces requested help.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes.Bow down to your rightful redcoat overlords, Yankee. You know that the US is a member of the UN, yes?

I think you'll find that they don't.

Nemesis Juggernaut writes:

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I asked for specific instances where the Patriot Act is infringing on the civil rights of its citizens.

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And you were given them.At least twice before.Now we know that you're trolling, NJ.Do not feed the trolls, people.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

There was yet another example in today's news. Another of the parts of the Patriot Act has been overturned.The key point in all of this is that the laws are set so the actions are kept secret. People ask for examples but how can you give examples when the actions themselves are secret?The US is becoming far more like some third world despot's playground where people are simply disappeared and where there are "Secret Police".

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

When something happens to me, or you for that matter, that indicates that our rights are being eroded I will certainly concede. Having libertarian qualities means not wanting personal freedoms to erode. Thanks for the vote of confidence, but really, there's no need for flattery, sir. Brilliant thought process. So you've also been killed in a car accident because you could be killed in a car accident?I hate to break the news to you, but you could disappear with or without the law. If someone wanted you to go away, you'd be gone. You forgot to mention that the Bogeyman lives under your bed per the directorate of the CIA.

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“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

Because it uncovers the motive. Its like the media. When was the last time you heard about a school being built in Iraq, other than it being blown up by insurgents? When was the last time you heard about little Johnny being killed by an IED? Every 5 minutes. Why do you suppose that is? I don't either. Its not a question about what to do about China so much as it is a simple question about motivation. I can't argue there. But I suppose that doesn't much matter when you're the guy strapped to a gurney while someone is removing your kidneys while you're conscious. Oh, I care... Kinda hard not to care when people are being systematically murdered. The irony is that its all done for monetary gain-- something communists rail against. The charge of hypocrisy is just a fringe benefit.

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“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

What motive? Look, NJ, feel free to make a list of atrocities and I'll tell you how awful I think they all are. Would you find that satisfactory?Or are you just desperate to find some bullshit justification on which to pin a charge of hypocrisy? Because there aren't any schools being built, construction has ground to a halt in Iraq due to the security situation, and a lot of people are still being killed over there for a war that isn't meeting any objective put forth for it. That's pretty horrible, if it's happening, but I do recall my church trying to tell me once - this is no shit - that in China they eat aborted fetuses in stir-fry.So, pardon me if I don't take your claims at face value. I'm aware that China harvests the organs of executed criminals - which you should recognize as pretty bad on its face if you're a Larry Niven reader - but pulling them out of live people? That's a stretch, I think. Even if that's happening, the solution isn't an invasion, its forcing China into even greater transparency through their inclusion into world affairs. For instance, the 2008 Olympics. I don't have any problem telling you that systematically murdering people is bad. Like I said present whatever list of atrocities you find convenient and I'll be happy to tell you how awful I think they are. In the meantime, should I start compiling a list of all the atrocities you haven't specifically, explicitly condemned?Or can you recognize this specious reasoning all on your own without having to turn it back on you? Are we done here?