both parents working-blame feminism or consumerism?

Because both spouses work, in most cases. There is no way just one of them out of the two working could possibly do all the household chores.This is what I see in most families that I know.Me and my wife split the chores, as best as we can.

You're going to have to provide actual statistics/evidences that support all of your assertions; from my own personal experience, two parents working barely gets enough food on the dinner table.You'll also have to demonstrate how all of these things are luxuries.Jon

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _En el mundo hay multitud de idiomas, y cada uno tiene su propio significado. - I Corintios 14:10
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _A devout people with its back to the wall can be pushed deeper and deeper into hardening religious nativism, in the end even preferring national suicide to religious compromise. - Colin Wells Sailing from Byzantium

I don't know how you can consider 'Keeping up with the Jones's" a luxury; maintaining social status in a community can certainly be important for success”both personally, and culturally.Now, my parents could've lived without these things (we do, in fact, live without most of them); we have a hand-pump well up the hill, a wash tub, a wood stove in the garage we could boil water on. We've got enough land to have a field large enough to grow enough food, raise cattle, chicken, and live a life generally reminiscent of the 1700's. Truthfully, this would not have affected me all too much; I can do without a lot of the crap I've got, but what would my friends say? I have met people who live [something] like this”largely self-sufficient”and I must say, it seems to have a great affect on their social life. Their friends are not the kind of people that would accompany them to college. Their lack of technological intelligence restricts their progress in school, makes prospects of college seem distant; indeed, they might not even understand the benefits of going to college and getting a higher-paying job to better their lives.You certainly don't want to fall behind the progress of civilisation; the effects, I believe, can be absolutely devastating. I think it is part of who we are as a culture and species”our sheep mentality”that gets us all [most of us] to take the step forward in technology/progress; we see it on a personal level as merely 'keeping with the Jones's', but I think the overall societal benefit is the ultimate evolutionary drive that keeps us trying to outdo our neighbours. In the end, the entire nation is highly advanced as a result of this seemingly selfish behaviour, and yet the entire society benefits. Cultures in which people do not participate in such greedy acquiring soon find themselves swallowed by the giant whale of the industrialized world.Technologies are a necessity; different people find different ones differently necessary, but it is general that the basics are needed: TV, computers, internet, cars, etc”the rest is just our species's nature kicking into higher gear This being mostly my opinion, loosely based on limited observation and somewhat nave assumptions.Jon

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Well, it's just that I remember you mentioning that you don't want to have kids, and you seemed to base that on the poor experiences you had.

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No, actually my colorful upbringing has never been a significant factor in my lack of desire to reproduce.Mostly, I don't want to have kids because I have never wanted kids. Never had that strong baby urge that women are supposed to get, never longed for a baby, never had much of any maternal feelings. I love my nieces and nephews and I would take care of them like they were my own if need be, but I just don't want to make any babies, and never have.

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Oh, and thanks for being honest, I'm sure it was tough.

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We all have a story to tell about our childhood. I am determined to not let that happen with my children, regardless of our income. Money doesn't make you rich after all.[/quote]Very true, very true. I wish my mother could figure that out.

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Because both spouses work, in most cases. There is no way just one of them out of the two working could possibly do all the household chores.

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Didn't you read the message you are replying to?Many, many women in the previous 30 or 40 years or so did exactly what you say is impossible; they worked full time and they did all or nearly all of the housework. Many women today are doing that because their husbands still think that cleaning the toilet and putting away the laundry and taking the kids to the doctor when they are sick is something that they just don't have to do.My mother did that, as I just related to you, and so did my mother in law.Although the situation is slowly getting better, the gender disparity in hours spent per week doing chores is still quite significant.It is a perception thing. Men think they they are doing a TON of housework because they are doing so much more than their fathers ever did. Women, however, still end up doing a lot more housework than the men. Edited by nator, : No reason given.

Evidence? Statistics? I've just not seen this in my personal life.

And they are awesome for doing it. It shouldn't have to be that way, was my point. It's true, my wife does more housework than me, but she doesn't fix anything in the house when it is broken, and I do 80% of the yard work. I also take the kids to the games, and a whole bunch more.I would say the responsibilities of the house are split evenly. Although she might not think so. That might be because she is gone from the house longer each day than me, and doesn't see what is always going on.

Abstract can be viewed here. This paper is found in The American Economic Review. A Chicago Sun-Times article is hereMore stats from the US CensusMore, from Canada this time. Want more? I can keep going if you require additional sources.

There's more to housework than those items. What type of care is the article talking about; men can't breasfeed. Her position calls into question her bias in the study, just as we would be called to question a study declaring Pepsi healthier, which was carried out by the CEO of Pepsi. What other work is involved? How many hours do men work outside of the home on average versus hours worked outside of home by women? Yes, it's extremely convenient to be able to put off that shingling project till next year, when the resulting water damage will then require that you restore half of the house's interior as well. Do these people know what yard work and house maintenance is? And this study reverses all the "judgements" of the previous studies you cited in saying that it has damnear nothing to do with sex, but rather with income.I think your studies are one-sided, biased, incomplete, and/or irrelevant for those reasons. Unless there are parts of those studies you can quote which explain the questions I'm coming up with when reading. Also, I'd like to see a study that says a significant proportion of these people would want their lives any other way? Any studies that say men would rather wash dishes, and women would rather repair the faucet? So, even if you've shown a [significant] difference (which I am not sure you have), you have yet to show it to be a problem.Jon

Hey jon,
Do you enjoy being an ass and being disingenuous?An example of the latter: Perhaps it means general care, not specific? I mean, if the study was about the time spent breastfeeding you would have a point. Think about this for a moment (if you can). It's pretty easy to be able to mow the yard today (blazingly hot where I'm at) or put it off for tomorrow. Dishes can't be put off like that. Cleaning the kitchen can't be put off. Bathing the baby can't be put off. The article is not talking about putting off a massive project (one which probably won't even be carried out by you.As to the income article, you can't read, can you? Read:

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when the wife is the primary earner the family is twice as likely to hire domestic help than high-income households where the husband is the main earner

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It damn well has to do with sex. Why do women hire domestic help but the man doesn't? Might it have something to do with the man's opinion that all that work is for his wife? Basically, the only thing money does in this article is say who has the power to decide what happens, but what's decided pretty much falls right into the norm. Man doesn't think help is necessary (wife can do it all), but woman realizes that help is definitely needed if she's not going to slave away for 20+ hours.By the way, I love how all your objections are based on mainly your personal experience. You claimed that it was your experience that it took two incomes to put food on the table. How about walking over to my house growing up--a single income (mother was a single mother) easily put food on the table among a hell of a lot of other things for two kids. Keep in mind, I'm talking an income that's less than USD 20,000. The only necessities are food (with water), shelter, and some form of clothing. Expensive shoes really aren't necessary. Designer clothers aren't. Fancy food (such as eating Hagen-Dags for ice cream, let alone ice cream itself) isn't. Having a massive house isn't necessary. Two (or more) cars aren't necessary, and where there's a decent public transit (like NYC) you don't even need a car. Video games aren't necessary. The internet isn't necessary (want news? radio's cheaper)So, you going to learn to think? Read? And stop being an stuck-up ass? It's getting old jon.

Thanks, dude, you saved me a lot of time and effort by replying just as I would have.

Plese explain, in detail, how the US Census statistics are deeply flawed.

Nah, the statistics are just fine; it's the analysis that's problematic. For example:

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The difference is that men's tasks can be delayed, while women's tasks are constant.

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That's a completely subjective, opinionated, biased, statement, which is not supported by any facts listed in the report: the report doesn't prove that home maintenance can or cannot be delayed. Aside from that, the comment is unnecessary for the U.S. Census, the purpose of which is simply to present plain facts; there's no need to add a comment about the nature of the chores; it's not their job to evaluate such things. They are stepping beyond their bounds as reporters and inserting a personal comment. If I must be clearer, just ask and I'll try to refine my post. Jon

I assume it will be safe to just send this reply to you, then That's irrelevant. The article says "caring"; caring includes all the things necessary to raise the child, of which breastfeeding is included. You can't change the words of the study so that it conforms to your ideas; the study is vague and ambiguous; throw it out and get a new one, or rest your point. So, what you're saying, is that if we exclude the massive home maintenance and yard work projects that can't be delayed, all we're left with is home maintenance and yard work projects that can be delayed? The article said:

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Men contribute most to yard work and home maintenace...men's tasks can be delayed...

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I showed an acceptable counter example of a home maintenance project (man's task) that cannot be delayed. So, when you say: "The article is not talking about putting off a massive project", you are again changing the words of the article to fit into your view. You can't change the words of the study so that it conforms to your ideas; the study is blatantly ignorant of what home maintenance is; throw it out and get a new one, or rest your point. Of course they can! Dishes in my house are put off all the time until someone is forced to do them; usually mother or father. Your single mother made/makes more than my two parents combined; however did you survive, you poor thing? The article never said that was the reason; they just said: "when the wife is the primary earner the family is twice as likely to hire domestic help than high-income households where the husband is the main earner." You made up the reason, and now have another assertion you must back up. I think that women not trusting their husbands to do those chores is equally as plausible; give me evidence why my reason is wrong, and yours is right, since the article does NOT discuss the reason for the difference. Again, you are changing the words of the article to fit into your view. You can't change the words of the study so that it conforms to your ideas; the study never mentioned a reason for the difference; throw it out and get a new one, or rest your point.Jon

You're the one who made the assertion that in your experience, it takes two incomes to put food on the table.The point of me bringing my mother in was to show that no, two-income families are not necessary to put food on the table.Next time, be specific. State that the two incomes combined equal X amount. For all I know from that comment of yours, both parents together could be making 40,000. No you didn't. My dad had to have our roof repaired (cursed hail storms). It got delayed quite a bit, with no adverse damage to the interior. Again, be specific.By the way, you're using very specific areas that the studies really don't address as a way to counter them. That's like saying that the Drosophilia genetic experiments failed to produce evolution--they weren't designed for that purpose.What is the average home maintenance? Changing light bulbs, tightening screws, making sure the fridge doesn't flood the kitchen floor, replacing cruddy faucets, painting walls. You don't fix your roof on a regular basis. Most of the time any damage done in a storm can be safely ignored for years. Case in point--at the house I used to live in, we had people fix the roof once. That was when we first moved there. That was roughly 10 years ago. It won't be needing repairs for quite some time yet (sw VA doesn't exactly get evil storms). As to the delaying (touching this point again)--it's being done by a company most of the time. Or do you have the time to go up on your roof and replace bad shingles? Do you have the equipment to do it safely? What about the money? It takes money to buy all the supplies (or pay the contractor). Even if the roof needs repair, if you don't have the money, it'll have to wait. On the other hand, you don't need money to do the dishes (well, comparable amount). Just some soap, hot water, and a sink will do.Oh, and since most roof repair isn't even done by home owners, how can that be a home maintenance project you'd be doing (unless you do decide to do it yourself, but then you need the time and money?)The rest of your post really is rubbish. You brought up inane "refutations" You give me evidence for this statement.As to my statement that you have a problem with, check with the rest of the studies. Generally, it's the opinion of men that women should do X work. It's no surprise, then, that if a woman has the power to buy help to do X work, she will, but if a man has that power, he won't. Because he already has someone doing X work. It's pretty damn simple.By the way, it's called "connect the dots". You never really learned to play that game, I can see. Tell me, how does your statement (which really is opinion, seeing as how my statement at least has some grounding in the previous studies linked) explain why women will hire help but men won't? Here's a hint--you've only given a poorly reasoned effort for the first half--why women hire help. Now answer why men won't.Really jon, learn to actually debate.Edited by kuresu, : removed an irrelevant question to the point I'm trying to make--how much time does breastfeeding take up? Was I thinking a touch clearer, I would have never asked that question to begin with.