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Author Topic:   Why Do People Steal?
Modulous
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 38 of 270 (641321)
11-18-2011 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Artemis Entreri
11-18-2011 2:37 PM


fraud
The store I use has my favorite Mate-based green tea mix for $9.00/lb. The thing is they never check your bag to see what tea is in it, you can put a label on it for the cheapest black tea they sell.

This is called fraud.

quote:
fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain

(from wiki)

It's a relatively minor fraud, but it is fraud nevertheless.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-18-2011 2:37 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-18-2011 3:39 PM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 43 of 270 (641334)
11-18-2011 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Artemis Entreri
11-18-2011 3:39 PM


Re: fraud
really minor fraud considering I buy hippy organic milk, and vegan mayonnaise, and a ton of other crap that costs twice as much as anywhere else.

My job partially revolves around catching fraudsters. This is the same rationalization that credit card fraudsters and insurance fraudsters come up with all the time. Just a FYI.

so I save $7.50 on the tea, $5 on coffee, and $10 on candy, I still get $60 worth of groceries when I go in there, and I do not think they give shit.

If that were true, you would not need the deceptive practices and you could approach them honestly and say 'I am providing you with large profit margins on the rest of my goods, can I get a discount on this tea?' If they really don't give a shit, as you say...

If you can't do the time don't do the crime. I have looked this one up already and out here it is a petty offense $25 fine. as is anything under $200.

This is a criminal morality, not the kind of morality you should aspire to I would have thought. The fact that you looked this up, means you also know it is a criminal offense, just one that is so minor so that people won't be motivated to enforce it, and even if they did you can cope with the penalty.

You fill up your shopping cart top and bottom with goods, then you go to the self checkout, and only ring up and pay for the items on the top of the cart. There is a store employee standing 15ft (<5m) away from you watching you. The trick is they hire Droids to watch the customers, these droids get paid to stand around, they are doing their job, but they are also "allowing" you to only pay for half of the items in your cart. My good friend does this all the time, probably every-time he goes to the store.

Using the apathy of employees is a tactic of fraudsters. You may not realize it, but you aren't depriving the shop of anything. They claw their losses back by overcharging their other more honest customers. So really, you are stealing a little from Mrs Miggins, from Tom Public and so on and so forth.

You're certainly not alone, many people will commit fraud, sometimes even serious fraud, if an opportunity presents itself.

Post 666

This can't go on, I must inform the law. Can this still be real
or just some crazy dream?

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-18-2011 3:39 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-18-2011 5:38 PM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(3)
Message 55 of 270 (641355)
11-18-2011 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Artemis Entreri
11-18-2011 5:38 PM


Re: fraud
Yeah but there is no God or any afterlife…right? so fuck it! Ima get mine. Milq da game. I love it when liberal atheists tell me about morality. Oh the irony.

What does a God or an afterlife have to do with morality? Morality is how humans interact with one another. I'm not sure how it is ironic for a liberal atheist to talk about morality.

Is that a British word? Across the pond we say Hustlers or Hustlaz

Fraudster is an English word. Hustler is a colloquial term for 'con man'. Con-men are often fraudsters, but most 'hustlers' would regard underpaying for tea as pathetic petty theft (though they may still go ahead and do it).

bet you have never illegally downloaded any music, or anything on the internet, right?

You seem to be under the misapprehension that I am lecturing you or something. I am not suggesting that you are a terrible person for committing crimes, I'm just pointing out that it is criminal behaviour.

I was just responding your stated position that 'My friend told me this is stealing. I maintain that it is bargaining.' and saying it wasn't bargaining, it was fraud.

You seem to be agreeing with me on that point.

Yes, but mine is petty, so it’s no biggie.

Maybe so, but it is not 'bargaining' nor is it really cool or clever enough to be considered 'hustling'.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-18-2011 5:38 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-18-2011 6:13 PM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 73 of 270 (641374)
11-18-2011 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Artemis Entreri
11-18-2011 6:13 PM


Re: fraud
English, British you know what I meant same difference, let’s not get into semantics till like page 7 or 8.

We're in a thread discussing whether an act of petty fraud constitutes stealing.

That is to say: we're already into semantics

Anyway, I was trying to draw the distinction between a uniquely British term and an English word used beyond the shores of Britain. As far as I am aware, 'fraudster' is not just a British term. I may be wrong, though.

Hustler is an American term, but it has made its way over to our culture too now. We have a show here called 'The Real Hustle' (which is a sort of spin off from a fictional series called 'The Hustle'), where apparently real people are fake hustled as a means of showing many of the common cons that are out there.

I do. You are fun on here. Ok its fraud. Not stealing.

The question is, is fraud theft? I would say that it does constitute stealing, since it is taking something you would not normally be entitled to take given your actual financial investment made.

And right back at ya, on the 'fun' front.

LOL nice try. I aint about to share the good stuff publicly on the itnernets, sorry dog , you got to figure that part of the game out on your own.

Since I already said, I professionally engage with fraudsters on a daily basis, I can assure you I know many tricks of my own. I already know how to get away with tens of thousands of pounds with only a few hours of time invested

I was once offered a sizeable series of bribes to facilitate almost legal activity (I would have to break a law with a relatively minor criminal penalty, and I knew that I wouldn't be prosecuted because of reputation issues). I'll leave it to your imagination as to whether I accepted the bribes, but to alleviate any sense that I am trying to get on some high moral horse, I was offered the bribes by a co-conspirator during another crime I was engaged in at the time.

As I mentioned earlier, I think most people would commit fraud if they thought they could get away with it. Misrepresent some material fact to get cheaper insurance, or to to claim more welfare benefit than they are entitled to. Some people simply don't realize how easy fraud is.

As one person in the financial sector once said. "If you're going to steal, steal big.". Another strategy is to do as you do, steal really small. Trying to steal (sorry, defraud ) $100k is the kind of thing that'll get you in serious trouble.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-18-2011 6:13 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-18-2011 7:26 PM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 89 of 270 (641395)
11-18-2011 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Artemis Entreri
11-18-2011 7:26 PM


fraud as theft
I think it is dishonest. And I know it is illegal, but I do not think it constitutes theft.

I would argue that fraud is a type of theft.

Theft is acquiring something that you are not entitled to, from someone who is - regardless of the method of the acquisition.

Fraud is obtaining something that you are not entitled to, by deception. That is to say, fraud is theft by deception.

Yeah but I am sure the penalty, and chance of discovery is too rough. That or maybe it’s something cultural, maybe us greedy “time is money” Americans would most likely jump all over that, and Englishmen are not that way. I dunno.

The chance of discovery is medium (it was low when the offer was made, but they've caught wise now), but being able to prove me guilty beyond reasonable doubt is another issue entirely.

There are plenty of English frauds, and some of them defraud for thousands of pounds. It just so happens I am not one of them. This isn't because of my nationality, but because I have a moral system which views theft by deception as morally bad.

You could do the same fraud yourself, it doesn't require a great deal of expertise or insider knowledge to pull it off.

You should’ve IMO. I realize you are not on a moral High horse, though I appreciate your civility. What is your reasoning though for not “taking advantage” of the situation though?

Call it one of the side effects of having morals. I don't like victimising people for personal profit, and it was not a victimless crime.

Where I am from most people do.

And most people are unpleasant, if they get to be so anonymously. Fraud is a great way to be unpleasant to someone else without worrying about the victims finding out who they are.

Stealing big is a bad idea IMO. Great risk and great reward, but I am far to conservative for that.

You're not thinking big enough. I'm talking billions big.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-18-2011 7:26 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-28-2011 3:03 PM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 145 of 270 (642498)
11-29-2011 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Artemis Entreri
11-28-2011 3:03 PM


profiting as theft
I think it could be {theft} if you stole everything without paying.

It can be if you stole anything without paying. I've never seen a bank robber try and justify stealing $1,000 by suggesting that he didn't steal all the money in the bank, and if they did I'd think they were wrong, and possibly foolish or insane.

Is the store entitled to wealth by the deception of price gouging?

It is as entitled to set its prices as you are to refuse to pay them. But you aren't entitled to their property.

If they are engaged in price gouging then that may be considered unfair business, and in the USA it is criminal. But it is defined as essentially raising prices during an emergency on essential items that the supplier has near monopoly access to.

quote:
Price gouging may be charged when a supplier of essential goods or services sharply raises the prices asked in anticipation of or during a civil emergency, or when it cancels or dishonors contracts in order to take advantage of an increase in prices related to such an emergency. The model case is a retailer who increases the price of existing stocks of milk and bread when a hurricane is imminent.

from wiki. I don't think profiting on tea counts as price gouging - though depending on your local economics it might be considered profiteering. For example, if your shop conspires with other businesses to fix the price of tea, meaning there is no point in shifting to a competitor, that would be wrong.

I think Fraud is part of capitalism

Exploitation and profit are part of capitalism, fraud isn't - even though it can exist (and I concede that will exist) within capitalist systems. But fraud will exist within any economic system, capitalism is not unique in this regard. I don't think setting prices high is fraud since it is not deceptive.

It would be fraudulent if they charged your credit card for more than the displayed price.

Theft is the Sprite I drink while I am shopping, and then toss before I get to the checkout.

That is theft, yes.

Not a fan of capitalism?

Not a fan of capitalism when it victimises people, no. I can't say I'm endeared to exploitation, either. I'm in favour of a capitalism with regulations intended to minimise the harm it causes. This is because alternatives seem to cause more harm.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-28-2011 3:03 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-29-2011 3:51 PM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 148 of 270 (642532)
11-29-2011 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Artemis Entreri
11-29-2011 3:51 PM


Re: profiting as theft
that is different than what a stated. I am still paying for the tea, just at a lower than advertised price.

But the point remains, that you stole only some tea does not prevent it from being theft.

yes I have refused, and offered another price, and they except it everytime.

Except it was achieved by deception, making it fraud.

My roommates GF is a coupon fan. Coupon A, states "save 50% on product X when you buy two", she tries to purchase one, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but it always stops the line, and if the store is really busy then they say ok here is your 50% off on product x, thank you for shopping (move along).

Is that also fraud?

Yes, that might be fraud, if deception is employed. But from the way you describe it, no deception is in play. So it is more properly classed as a con or a crappy scam, rather than fraud.

sounds like a decent hustle to me.

Sounds like a petty hustle to me. Really, a discount that you aren't technically entitled to? Not exactly the work of the work of an expert grifter, is it?

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-29-2011 3:51 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-30-2011 1:07 PM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 152 of 270 (642680)
11-30-2011 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Artemis Entreri
11-30-2011 1:07 PM


Re: profiting as theft
fraud is different than theft but a type of it

Fraud is not different from theft. It is a type of theft.

and then there are Cons and Scams which if combined with deception (even though deceptions i part of cons and scams), then becomes a fraud too.

I'm not sure what's confusing. Fraud is theft by deception. Scams may or may not rely on deception. The scam you depicted relies on human tendency to not get too picky about small things during busy hours (if it is judged more important to serve lots of customers than to hold up selling stuff to argue about Ts & Cs of a minor coupon).

If you had no idea it was against Ts & Cs that wouldn't be fraud or theft as far as I can tell.

so it depends on the "intent" of the the person with the coupon? If my intent is deception for a better price, then I am committing fraud, but if ignorance is at hand and I merely do not read the fine print, then I am not committing fraud.

It isn't about your intent, no. It is about your actual actions. If you attempted to deceive the cashier that the coupon applied to single item purchases, that would be fraudulent. If instead you just relied on their making the pragmatic decision to not argue in the given context, it's probably a non-fraudulent scam.

Seems no different than getting cheap tea to me.

But you obtained that cheap tea using deception, making it fraud. The coupon scam doesn't rely on deceiving anybody. That's the difference.

You might argue that they are morally equal, but they are different types of crime nevertheless.

or driving to another state to purchase cheaper tobacco, or cheaper liquor, or cheaper gasoline.

I don't think there is any crime involved in purchasing things where they are cheaper, unless you are evading taxes. Here in the UK, we have 'booze runs' where we go to France and buy lots of alcohol since the taxes on alcohol are much lower there. There are limits for how much you are allowed to bring back with you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-30-2011 1:07 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-30-2011 7:51 PM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 154 of 270 (642732)
12-01-2011 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Artemis Entreri
11-30-2011 7:51 PM


Re: profiting as theft
that is the same plan as the cheap tea scam. banking that the cashier either 1. doesn't notice, or 2. doesn't care because the loss of goods is less than $10

That may be part of it, but since the tea scam specifically utilizes deception, that makes it fraud. Whereas the coupon scam does not involve deception. Yes, the tea scam also plays on cashier apathy, but it also involves deceiving the apathetic cashier.

Say you cross the pond and you want a gun. I go buy one, and then sell it to you in a private sale. private sales are legal here. but my intent to purchase for a private sale to a foreigner (and you kind of look like a pirate) is not. I guess this falls under fraud?

I don't know enough about gun laws to tell. I'm not sure that profit was made by deception, in the sense that would be construed as fraud. But maybe your purchase could be considered fraudulent if you claimed it was for personal use or something like that as a means to acquire the weapon.

As for looking like a pirate, it's the glasses isn't it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-30-2011 7:51 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-01-2011 1:56 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
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