What to believe, crisis of faith

Hi Aztraph,Before I respond, let me state that I am a Christian who believes in the Bible and who also believes that the events outlined in Genesis actually happened -- including Noah's Flood. I don't believe that everything living evolved from an "amoeba" over the last 3 billion years. Now that you know the frame of reference I'm working from...If the Bible is false, what do you lose by continuing to believe it? If it's true, what do you lose by giving up your faith in it?Do you have any underlying motives for wishing to give up faith in the Bible (i.e., you'd really like to break some of its rules and not feel guilty about it)? Or, are you truly on search for truth? It's funny. You believe in God. You're certain that the Bible was inspired by God, but you don't believe God is capable of keeping His word free from corruption.In Second Peter 1:21, the Bible says: Are you aware that the Bible is not one book, but 66 different books? Are you aware that the New Testament is centuries younger than any book of the Old Testament? (Millenia younger than some of the Old Testament books). Yet, Jesus (God in the flesh) -- in the New Testament -- freely quotes from the Old Testament and never once indicates that there are problems with it.Out of curiousity, which parts do you think man has changed to an extent that the original meaning has been twisted to serve mankind's purpose? What on earth does the Catholic Church have to do with the history of the Bible? The Catholic Church didn't even exist until two or three centuries after ALL the books of the Bible had been written.Your point about the catholic holidays, instead of proving that the Bible is false, indicates that the Catholic Church is a pagan, political organization that has nothing to do with the Bible. The Catholic Church disregards many, many plain Biblical teachings. An excellent observation. Many people never really think about this and think that what they believe is something they've come up with on their own...a conclusion they reached...when, in fact, it is just someone else's conclusion they came in contact with. I must congratulate you on this observation. Many people confuse evidence with interpretations of evidence, and, before you know it, the interpretation becomes a "fact."Was it evidence that made you lose faith in the Bible? Or was it interpretations of evidence?Out of curiousity, are/were you a member of a particular denomination (i.e., Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, etc.)? If so, which one?Cheers,
--JasonAbE: Oh yeah. My faith has been shaken a few times in different ways: my early college experience was one of those times. I decided to stick with the Bible no matter what...I'm still glad I did.This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-15-2005 02:01 AMThis message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-15-2005 02:50 AM

Also, out of curiousity, are there any particular parts of the Bible that are causing you particular difficulty? (If you don't mind sharing such issues on the board)--Jason

Hi CS,About Jonah's whale...Jonah 1:17 says: It was a "great fish" (not a whale). The Bible makes it clear that this was a miraculously prepared fish, too. Science does not disprove the Book of Jonah.About the "corruption" of the Bible...You think the Bible is corrupted, and you consider the 10 commandments to be among the sections that men have corrupted. May I ask: all ten, or just some of them? If not all ten, then which ones do you think were corrupted?TheLiteralists Blunt Remarks About Catholicism... Hey. Somehow I missed your posts when I read the thread. If I had known you had posted I might not have posted quite so bluntly. However, my mother was a Catholic (she almost became a nun...thank God she didn't). My grandmother is a Catholic.I've studied the Bible off and on since I was 12 (I'm 32 now). And I've read a little here and there about the Catholic Church and seen it in the news. Both historically and in modern times the organization strikes me as political and pagan and unbiblical. I'm very willing to try to back up what I say (in another thread), but I realize you may not care to engage in such a discussion.Let me also say that Zondervan (a company famous for publishing Bibles) has published a series of books that supposedly exposes christian sects that are cults. One book in the series, entitled Unmasking the Cults, lists lots and lots of supposed christian "cults". The organization I belong to -- the United Pentecostal Church, International -- is specifically listed. Zondervan actually devoted an entire book in this particular series, entitled "Jesus Only" Churches, to exposing the "cult" doctrines of my organization and churches that teach the same basic doctrines.The main reasons we are considered a cult: (1) we don't believe in the Trinity and (2) we teach that people must be baptized in Jesus name in order to recieve remission of sins.I share this to let you know I understand what it means to have your religious beliefs knocked around. I don't mind my beliefs being mocked or examined. I actually like people to question my beliefs. I do try to be fairly respectful of others beliefs, but I will sometimes "calls it as I sees it." Are my religious beliefs in line with the Bible? Are yours?Some miscellaneous stuff... IOW, you placed a certain amount of your faith in college instructors and scientists. I have, too, but to a lesser degree. When they tell me that all living things -- from dragon flies to water moccassins -- evolved from a single cell over 3 billion years, I don't believe them. Just because they say a number of true things doesn't mean everything they say is true. The word fact, even when used sarcastically, isn't gobbledygook. Perhaps. However, that doesn't amount to being the truth. The ideas of very credible scientists can be proven wrong as new information comes to light -- no matter how good the case seemed for the faulty conclusion before the new information was discovered.--JasonThis message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-15-2005 05:00 AM

Tusko,I understand you. I really wouldn't use such an argument with someone starting off in the "I don't believe the Bible" category. If such a person were willing to listen, I'd try to present positive arguments for the Bible...but mainly I'd probably just try to answer whatever concerns they might have about the Bible (If I could...and if they were interested, which is rarely the case).However, Aztraph (sp?), is a person who does/did have a faith in the Bible. To me, that makes the argument a bit different. There will be time that doubts creep up. Don't give up so easily. What have you got to gain by giving up the faith? (There are some practical things...you can do the forbidden things: lie, cheat, steal, fornicate) What have you got to lose? Eternal salvation.It was intended as an encouragement to hold on to his/her faith in spite of the doubts he/she has encountered...God might answer the doubts for him/her. He did for me.--Jason

Schraf, Why? What purpose does this serve for you? What if you succeed in causing people to doubt that which they originally believed? What will that accomplish for you? What will it accomplish for them?Aren't you, in a way, a preacher? A preacher whose message is "I really highly doubt the existence of the God of the Bible, because He has not revealed Himself in any experimentally verifiable way."Have you convinced anybody of your message? How many? What if your doubts turn out to be wrong?--Jason{edited because I left out a word}This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-15-2005 11:19 AM

Schraf, But this experiment cannot truly be completed until we pass over to "the other side" can it. Being well-adjusted to society is not the only benefit to believing and obeying the gospel. Indeed, sometimes those obedient to the gospel have found themselves outcasts.If two people do "about as well" as each other in this life, and one goes to hell and the other goes to heaven...are their circumstances in this life really a fair basis for comparison?--JasonAlso: what if God decides to bless (societally) youths who heed Phat's counsel, whether they get "preached to" or not. How could one know?This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-15-2005 11:20 AMThis message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-15-2005 11:22 AM

I'm not sure you are understanding me. It is highly possible that God will never choose to submit to your need to have Him experimentally verified. So you could go through your whole life utterly convinced that one should doubt Him, and convince others.IF the Bible is true, though, then your doubts are wrong. You and those you have convinced will find out on the other side of life, in which case, it is too late to do anything about the matter.You are a preacher, and, thus, responsible for those to whom you preach.Listen, you believe what you preach (i.e., "I doubt the Bible is true"), and I don't mind you preaching it. But isn't there a possibility that you are wrong?If I am wrong, what happens to those I preach to? They rot in the dirt like every other product of abiogenesis and billions of years of evolution.If you are wrong (AND the Bible is right), what happens to those you preach to? Possibly, they spend an eternity in hell.Have you or science disproved the Bible?--Jason

Hi Aztraph, But now you write: "...but in my opinion, man doesn't have the word of God in his posession to begin with."Look. Don't think I don't understand the confusion. But can you see how you have a contradiction there? One part of you believes the Bible is inspired but corrupted. Another part believes it is not inspired at all.Of course, I can't tell you which one to choose...or even that you must choose. I have often allowed a contradiction to remain in my mind for years. Why rush to decide? I'm glad you recognize the possibility, whether you believe it or not.--Jason

Hey, good. Are there other books? That's possible. Does that mean the ones were using are corrupt or false? No. My mom was Catholic, as I said earlier. She tells me that, when she was little, the sermons were always in Latin...no one even understood the messages. IIRC, this was true centuries ago, too. Currently, I am under the impression that the Catholic church was, in the past, trying to prevent people from reading the Bible. Presumably because it is very obvious that the Catholic Church's doctrines do not line up with scripture. (But that would be a discussion for another thread...if you want to discuss whether the Catholic doctrines line up with the Bible, I'd be happy to propose such a thread in the PNT forum).I hope my obvious disagreement with the Catholic Church are not offensive to you. I do not mind people questioning whether what I teach lines up with the Bible or not. Hopefully, people of other denominations do not mind having their particular doctrines compare with scripture, either. BTW, you may click the "peek" button on any post to see how a member codes a post. For instance, if you wanted to know how I make the quote boxes with your name in it, just click the "peek" button, and it will show the text AND codes I used.--Jason

Some people in my church reach the conclusion that the creation account in Genesis is allegorical in some way. That helps them with the apparent dilemma between science and Genesis. These people generally consider the rest of the Bible to be literally true. Perhaps that stance would help you?OTOH, I believe the events in Genesis occurred just as it says it did, and I fail to see how science has disproved it.Did God tell people to use the speed of light as a clock to guage the age of the universe? Is it possible that God is not confined to the laws regarding one of his creations: i.e., light, and that He can put light wherever He wants and however He wants?Did God tell people that isotopic ratios in rocks were indicators of the age of the earth? Is it possible that God set the ratios for some other purposes and we have misinterpretted them?Look. Since you intend to live by the Bible rules, then, take your time with decisions regarding your faith. Allow the dissonance to remain for as long as you need to. God can answer the doubts in a way that's meaningful for you. You have some faith in God. Have you prayed about this issue? If you have, give Him time.Strangely, for me, it was after I decided to believe the Bible no matter what that the answers came.--Jason

I see how you see it. I disagree, of course.Jesus said in John 5:39 Jesus quoted from several of the prophets, the psalms, and Genesis.--Jason(I don't expect this to change your mind, btw)

Aztraph, Well, I cannot speak of their motives. I am under the impression that there are more inspired works; however, how many do you need? What is the purpose of the Bible? The Old Testament is the details of several contracts between God and men...particularly the Jews and establishes a physical "kingdom of God" (i.e., Israel), lots of prophecies (many of which are fullfilled in the birth of Christ), songs, poems and good wisdom (I love the Proverbs -- good daily wisdom).The New Testament is a contract between God and all mankind and establishes a spiritual kingdom of God (the church). Jesus shed his blood for remission of sins. It is clearly outlined how we can participate in the contract and have our sins remitted (Acts 2:38, for instance). The expectations God has for how we should conduct our lives are thoroughly given in both Testaments under the rules of both contracts.The Bible helps us please God and tells us how to enter into a contractual relationship with Him; it is not meant to unravel all the mysteries of biology and cosmology.My 2 cents on that. You are welcome. You'll sometimes see people do some pretty neat things in their messages....just click on "peek" and the secret is yours, too. Wow. Congratulations on the family. I am 32 and single. I've never even had a girl friend. At this point in time, however, I think I will be content to remain single. I live with my parents and my sister, who is 10 years my younger. Are/were you a baptist? I thought you were Catholic the whole time! Ooops. (it was your disappointment in discovering the true origins of the holidays that made me feel that way, I think).I was a math/physics nut in high school. Studied accounting at our local 4 year university (University of West Florida). I got three years into it (all As and Bs, alwasy either on the deans list or the presidents list) and succombed to the temptation to cheat on one test. The guilt drove me insane (I made two Cs, for the first time). For better or worse, I expelled myself. I've had a bunch of nothing jobs, but am fairly content and am actually glad I'm not an accountant. Heh. Well, I'm a fast-food cashier (please no jokes). Heh.Have you ever explored any apologetic web sites like Answers in Genesis ?Nice to meet ya.--JasonThis message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-16-2005 01:29 AMThis message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-16-2005 01:30 AM

Why you nihilistic, empiricistic, materialistic...edited to add the tongue-sticking-out smilie.This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-16-2005 01:47 AMThis message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-16-2005 01:53 AM