What to believe, crisis of faith

You need to get comfortable with the fact that the only truth you will ever know, is that you exist. The consolation is that at least you do get one absolute truth in this life.Unfortunately no other truth comes directly from that, or is revealed from that. There are obviously more truths out there, and your life is a search for those truths, or making your way through life using them the best you can.So hold that first and absolute truth very carefully and ask yourself if there are other truths out there, what is the best method to get at them?People will lie trick and decieve you. So will your own body sometimes (maybe all the time). Perhaps all you will ever get to know is a relative truth (consistent but not accurate). But being you, and knowing that you are you means you have the will to choose the method of looking for more truths, so that you at least get something you can work with.As far as I can tell the scientific method is one of the best ways of working out natural phenomena. It has generated consistently the most consistently useful rules for working in this world. That's the method I choose for most attempts at gaining knowledge.Logically if there is a God or Gods, at least ones that want you to have truth about the world they made, studying natural phenomena can't hurt. Unlike a book, people can't as yet rewrite natural phenomena.But don't be fooled by claims that 1000s of scientists can't be wrong, and can't be part of a conspiracy. They can and they have. The platitude that it gets worked out with more evidence is no use to a person living in real time. The counterevidence may lie surpressed or never appear within your life time.Trust in the method of searching for truth and don't get hung up on a specific theory. If you can't spend the time going over other people's work then accept findings with the knowledge that something may not be right. Make sure to review the evidence if the matter ever becomes important.But that's my take on the situation.(AbE: The scientific method generates no moral truths. You can test yourself to find your own character, but in the end you can even change that if you find some aspect which isn't desirable. You may find that religion serves a purpose in guiding you to personal moral truths. Though I'd make sure not to confuse the mythology with the moral lessons. And like studying natural phenomena, you should explore different religious/moral phenomena.)This message has been edited by holmes, 09-15-2005 06:34 PM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I'm going to make a plug for my first reply to you, though Ben accurately distilled it when he ref'd it earlier (thanks Ben). Maybe it'll help with a more detailed analysis of where you go once you start as human. Ben seems to be tackling (or started to tackle) the identity/nonempirical side of life, while I was trying to tackle the empirical. Whether the you (your one bit of true knowledge) is inseparable from the body you appear to have, or not, immortal, or not, is interesting to ponder but perhaps irrelevant.Isn't the more important question who you are inside? What is your character? What good is it to know that in fact your mind is not part of a body, or that it will last forever? Would that possibly change who you are inside? Why?Whereas discovering who you are ends up with a practical result you can use whether you end up being immortal, or die the next day.I'm with Ben on the agnosticism toward souls. I have pondered it, but have found no conclusion. Ben answered this already: Because it has a practical value about something specific in the empirical world. It sounds like you are using it as the alternative to a creation story so as to give you meaning. It can't.Nothing coming out of science can give you meaning. It only gives you coherent physical explanations regarding what you will experience in this world.I might add that evolution can't account for everything anyway, as that is only one theory about a specific phenomena (species diversity). There are questions regarding how life arose in the first place (science theorizes abiogenesis), as well as how the elements of the Universe arose so that life could arise (science theorizes the "big bang").Think of science as a fact checker, or a sensory organizer, in order to explore the world you experience. Do not lean on it for more than that or you will be severely disapointed.This then cycles back around to Ben's question, which mirrors a suggestion I tagged on at the end of my first post to you... if you are looking for meaning, which may entail religious exploration (for moral reason rather than clinical fact), why are you so focused on one entity all or nothing?Perhaps the Catholics had something right in adopting all of those Pagan holidays. Instead of reaching out and smashing/killing others in every case of difference, exploring those other faiths to see what could be accumulated into the their own faith.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Here might be something interesting to think about. If you have a soul (might want to watch your spelling on that), why does that mean there's any more accountability than if you don't have one?You might say that according to a certain faith that you will be judged in heaven (afterlife), yet that religion is filled with many statements that you cannot know what judgement your actions will bring. For example it seems without question that King David would end up in heaven, yet his life is filled with debauches most couldn't even dream about. How can you worry about accounting for what God will judge you on, when it is patently not known?The Bible gives guidelines, but then also talks of forgiveness. Indeed even the most heinous acts of murder can be forgiven in less than a blink of an eye, and essentially already have been because of the actions of Jesus.But this is even assuming that one faith to be true. It could be others and then there may be accounting or not, and in some cases your trust in one faith could be a major check against you.If you don't have a soul, whose to say you still aren't accountable? If friends and family matter to YOU (that thing you know is real), then there will be accountability. If you want something specific in life, the course you choose will have accountability.What's more you are always accountable to YOU. Unless you have no conception of self, or ways to measure who you are vs what you would like to see, there is accountability. Okay, that's fine, but remember the Bible has a rather rich history. If you were concerned about dragging pagan ideas into Xianity after the Bible was "sealed", you may be surprised at how much paganism was adapted into Xian "mythology" before the papers were gathered and stamped complete.This is damning to some, but intriguing to others. It may mean less reliance must be paid to the literal text of miracles, to concentrate on the deeper meaning of message.Some have even theorized Xianity was a gnostic religion with stories being besides the point (a candy coating if you will) where the truths are revealed by deeper study, without the childish trappings of fairy tales.Compare and contrast. And more important than that, compare and contrast the meanings within to YOU.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

No problem, and don't worry about dropping out here and there. You gave given me good advice about knowing to drop out when people simply aren't trying to discuss.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I have already said I am an agnostic and so have some differences with truthlover. But it should be said that I have found him particularly level headed and inspiring (back when he was posting more).He seems to be living the exploration I and Ben have been hinting at, but with a stronger Xian flavor/emphasis.I don't think you would be going wrong by following his suggestions.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)