What to believe, crisis of faith

It can be inspired, but not literally true. And that's enough for Aztraph to be able to find a way of working things out.

Hey, good. Are there other books? That's possible. Does that mean the ones were using are corrupt or false? No. My mom was Catholic, as I said earlier. She tells me that, when she was little, the sermons were always in Latin...no one even understood the messages. IIRC, this was true centuries ago, too. Currently, I am under the impression that the Catholic church was, in the past, trying to prevent people from reading the Bible. Presumably because it is very obvious that the Catholic Church's doctrines do not line up with scripture. (But that would be a discussion for another thread...if you want to discuss whether the Catholic doctrines line up with the Bible, I'd be happy to propose such a thread in the PNT forum).I hope my obvious disagreement with the Catholic Church are not offensive to you. I do not mind people questioning whether what I teach lines up with the Bible or not. Hopefully, people of other denominations do not mind having their particular doctrines compare with scripture, either. BTW, you may click the "peek" button on any post to see how a member codes a post. For instance, if you wanted to know how I make the quote boxes with your name in it, just click the "peek" button, and it will show the text AND codes I used.--Jason

I see the Bible and the word of God as two seperate things, the word of God is infalable, the bible is a product of man, therefore imperfect. Do you see the distinction?

Some people in my church reach the conclusion that the creation account in Genesis is allegorical in some way. That helps them with the apparent dilemma between science and Genesis. These people generally consider the rest of the Bible to be literally true. Perhaps that stance would help you?OTOH, I believe the events in Genesis occurred just as it says it did, and I fail to see how science has disproved it.Did God tell people to use the speed of light as a clock to guage the age of the universe? Is it possible that God is not confined to the laws regarding one of his creations: i.e., light, and that He can put light wherever He wants and however He wants?Did God tell people that isotopic ratios in rocks were indicators of the age of the earth? Is it possible that God set the ratios for some other purposes and we have misinterpretted them?Look. Since you intend to live by the Bible rules, then, take your time with decisions regarding your faith. Allow the dissonance to remain for as long as you need to. God can answer the doubts in a way that's meaningful for you. You have some faith in God. Have you prayed about this issue? If you have, give Him time.Strangely, for me, it was after I decided to believe the Bible no matter what that the answers came.--Jason

Aztraph,Nice post. I have a question, and a comment:Question: I'm wondering why you're limiting yourself to considering only the Bible when thinking about non-empirical issues. Furthermore, I get the feeling that you're restricting yourself to somebody else's interpretation of the Bible, not your own. Why?Comment: My inkling is that you need to resign yourself to the fact that you're human. As such, no matter what "exists", there's no way for you to get "special access" to "what is". You'll always have this layer of humanity in the way; not only for listening to what other people have to say, but even when thinking and feeling on your own.That is THE fact of life. Like I think holmes was suggesting, it's a matter of accepting it. From there, I think you just need to find what works for you. I would suggest stop asking questions about truth, and start asking questions about yourself:What is unquestionably "good" to me?
What is unquestionably "meaningful" to me?
What do I like?
What do I dislike?I think you hit on a point that we're struggling with at EvC. Both the Bible and science are open to interpretation. I'd say the key is to find interpretations of both which are consistent with the data (the Bible and scientific observations) and fit with the questions with yourself. Different people have different starting points for doing this, but the need to make a resolution seems to be there for everybody.

I see how you see it. I disagree, of course.Jesus said in John 5:39 Jesus quoted from several of the prophets, the psalms, and Genesis.--Jason(I don't expect this to change your mind, btw)

But if truth exhists in them why remove them? would they not give us some insight? something? Who is to decide? If every one is telling me to decide for myself, shouldn't i have ALL available information? Your disagreement is not offensive, I enjoy having a place to express and listen to opinions that differ from my own. That's how one learns, by keeping an open mindand thankyou for the quote trick, i was wondering but too much of a noob to ask.BTW: a little more about myself, I am 36, married almost 10 years to a wonderful woman, and am the father of 2 sweet little girls, 8 and 5 years old.I attended Fort Wayne Bible college in 1987-88 majoring in Music Ed. Academic probation kept me from going back. the summer after i worked with my dad in heating and air cond. and went to Oakland City College in southern IN (a General Baptist college), got a certificate in HVA/CR and stayed on to get my associates degree in applied science. worked for my dad a few then spent the 90's in Indianapolis, IN.I returned to Seymour in june 2001. I am currently involved in Appliance repair and I am a maytag repaiman (please no jokes).

You seem like a very nice person, Astraph. I admire those who search for the truth--no matter what the truth may be. There are many who do not.I am perhaps the wrong person to be speaking to you, since I have been through no religious crisis, was not brought up to any religion, nor was brought up to any anti-religious position. Such things were not discussed in my home.On the other hand, that may give me a perspective--since my slate was, in a sense, clean.This is what I have determined. Of course, no one really knows the ultimate truth.But I think at the moment that we are evolutionary products of a mindless universe. In an objective sense, our lives are meaningless, though we can make our own small meanings out of life as indeed we must do if we are not to go crazy.But to look at the matter objectively, the sum total of our lives amount to a bit of smoke that dissolves in a few seconds. I will die soon, and my friends will no doubt have a funeral of sorts and may even say a few words over my grave. Then someone else will take my place and after a while my existence on this earth will be of no more significance then of some dog that died in a ditch. This is the total of all human existence.As regards a god, I see no evidence. The very concept of God is riddled with logical problems which are unsolvable. Of course, one can always say that God is mysterious and beyond human comprehension. Yes, one can say that, but it is a sentimental idea, like your view that "God is Love." What does that mean? Does it mean that God is an emotion rather than a being? There is an emotion that is not attached to a being? No, this will not do.The only God worth his salt is omnipotent, and all powerful. A lesser god merely begs the question: who made this lesser God that is subject to nature?Nonetheless, one is troubled by various phenomena. For example, why should anything exist? We know, as Holmes has affirmed, that we exist. That is no dream, and anyway if it was there had to be a dreamer. What created the universe? One answer is: nothing. The universe has always existed in some form. Why? There is no answer.What is mind? Why is it that I feel incorporeal? The materialists tell us that there is no such thing as "mind" apart from the brain, that my feeling of mental space is an illusion. And that may be so.But it is that phenomena that creates the notion of the "supernatural" which is another word for "mental."I hope I've answered your question.

I remember in sunday school about year ago the teacher qoted the bible and said "avoid the apperence of evil" how would you interpret that? Biologicaly yes, is that all we are? I mean, if all we are is the biological then evolution seems the right choice.But what of the human sole? can evolution account for that? I don't believe it can.

It's strange to answer a question with a question. I'd appreciate receiving an answer to my question.I don't feel the need to interpret the Bible for myself. So I wouldn't interpret what your Sunday School teacher said. How could I? Does evolution need to address it? Is it at all an empirical question?Evolution is an empirical theory. It has nothing to say, one way or another, about non-empirical things. So... I wouldn't call that a flaw in evolution theory. If you expect evolution theory to cover that, I would call that a flaw in your expectation.

You paint a very cold and bleak picture. Depressing. I do see the point your trying to make, but then again, if your right, what was the point, of you making your point.I mean if theres no point to anything why doesn't mankind commit suicide?

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That which does not kill us, makes us stranger.-T.G.
Aztraph

That was a shrewd question. You are quite right--no one can live nihilistically.Actually, I'm rather happy. I've always been happy. But happiness is not the point, is it? No, what matters to you--and to me--is the truth.And that is one of those "small meanings" I mentioned that it is possible to pursue--the truth. That's what keeps me going.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 09-16-2005 12:05 AM

i was wanting to know YOUR interpretation of something that was ambiguous at best. Just to make it clear that we all think differently. I have my own thoughts about that passage and expressed them, my point was noted then dismissed(yes i'm bitter about it, i know i shouldn't be) because it didn't fit in with the "Lesson Plan" you must forgive me, it's late i have to work tomorrow, my mind is skipping grooves and i'm a tad crankie. Do you not believe in the sole? if evolution can't account for everything, and if I can't expect it to; then why put any stock into it at all?

Aztraph, Sure. I'm happy to give interpretations of things I feel capable of. I'm sorry the example didn't work out; it's hard to interpret things that are given within a larger context that I don't have a handle on. I'm a cautious person in that way.And I'm sorry your interpretation got rejected for those reasons. I hate that. If by "soul" you mean something non-material that exists after death, then no. I don't have any idea whether there's a soul or not.This belief / not belief in soul is grounded in non-empirical introspection. It's not grounded in any empirical investigation. Like I said, things like empirical theories say nothing about the non-empirical, non-material. If I pointed at a woman and told you "that woman steals wallets, be careful," I don't think you would be so dismissive. Does every statement have to cover everyhting in order to be worthy of consideration?Evolution theory is a theory of the empirical world. You should put stock into it for what it's meant for--a description of the empirical world. You should not put stock into it for things it is not meant for--any consideration outside the empirical world.I think this is a pretty straightforward thing. Maybe it would be helpful if you explained why you think evolution theory should cover anything outside of the empirical world.

Aztraph, Well, I cannot speak of their motives. I am under the impression that there are more inspired works; however, how many do you need? What is the purpose of the Bible? The Old Testament is the details of several contracts between God and men...particularly the Jews and establishes a physical "kingdom of God" (i.e., Israel), lots of prophecies (many of which are fullfilled in the birth of Christ), songs, poems and good wisdom (I love the Proverbs -- good daily wisdom).The New Testament is a contract between God and all mankind and establishes a spiritual kingdom of God (the church). Jesus shed his blood for remission of sins. It is clearly outlined how we can participate in the contract and have our sins remitted (Acts 2:38, for instance). The expectations God has for how we should conduct our lives are thoroughly given in both Testaments under the rules of both contracts.The Bible helps us please God and tells us how to enter into a contractual relationship with Him; it is not meant to unravel all the mysteries of biology and cosmology.My 2 cents on that. You are welcome. You'll sometimes see people do some pretty neat things in their messages....just click on "peek" and the secret is yours, too. Wow. Congratulations on the family. I am 32 and single. I've never even had a girl friend. At this point in time, however, I think I will be content to remain single. I live with my parents and my sister, who is 10 years my younger. Are/were you a baptist? I thought you were Catholic the whole time! Ooops. (it was your disappointment in discovering the true origins of the holidays that made me feel that way, I think).I was a math/physics nut in high school. Studied accounting at our local 4 year university (University of West Florida). I got three years into it (all As and Bs, alwasy either on the deans list or the presidents list) and succombed to the temptation to cheat on one test. The guilt drove me insane (I made two Cs, for the first time). For better or worse, I expelled myself. I've had a bunch of nothing jobs, but am fairly content and am actually glad I'm not an accountant. Heh. Well, I'm a fast-food cashier (please no jokes). Heh.Have you ever explored any apologetic web sites like Answers in Genesis ?Nice to meet ya.--JasonThis message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-16-2005 01:29 AMThis message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-16-2005 01:30 AM