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Author Topic:   US war crime as free speech issue (help holmes sort this out)
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 1 of 80 (247270)
09-29-2005 11:11 AM


Just starting to make the news is the story of a porn website (us owner, dutch website) which gave us military free memberships (their credit cards would be declined due to serving in war zones) for pictures from the war.
The result was posting of iraqis and afghanis killed an mutilated by us servicemen, with gag commentary. The images (and text) are free to view on a forum style site like EvC.
Here is a graphic, no punches pulled article on the website and the questions this raises.
Here is the CNN article on the same story. One will note that CNN refuses to even give the website's name because the NAME is offensive to people. That's right, the word "fuck" is too offensive in an article about us soldiers mocking dead enemies using photos they have made. One wonders if the porn on the site also made them think twice.
Apocalypse Now, we have arrived. Truly a glimpse into the heart of darkness, and our willingness to find moral offense in the simple rather than in the actual horrific brutality we engage in at much greater levels.
Interestingly one should note that the US military is not following up on this very quickly. They appear to find nothing wrong with the acts of photographing war dead, as well as posting them and mocking them, UNLESS this is done in trade for looking at sexual imagery. Then some code has been violated.
There are so many topics which can spin from this, but I figured it was an interesting story which people should be aware of.
This message has been edited by holmes, 09-29-2005 11:12 AM
This message has been edited by holmes, 09-29-2005 11:12 AM
This message has been edited by holmes, 10-02-2005 05:10 AM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Nuggin, posted 09-29-2005 11:40 AM Silent H has not replied
 Message 3 by Chiroptera, posted 09-29-2005 11:47 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 7 by Chiroptera, posted 09-29-2005 4:17 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 10 by Dr Jack, posted 09-30-2005 6:57 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 23 by RAZD, posted 10-02-2005 2:16 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 41 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-20-2005 10:53 AM Silent H has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 2 of 80 (247284)
09-29-2005 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
09-29-2005 11:11 AM


While offensive, also predictable
While this sort of treatment is offensive, it's also very predictable.
One of the first things that happens in war is the dehumanization of your enemy. If they are people, then killing them is murder. If they are not people, then killing them is a job.
This sort of thing has been going on for a long time. And I'm not talking about Vietnam here. Similiar stuff was happening in the Spanish-American war (and just after) in the Phillipens.
This sort of thing tends to creap up whenever our military consists of mostly younger men (18-25). Kind of makes you wonder if they are the sort we want fighting wars.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 80 (247288)
09-29-2005 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
09-29-2005 11:11 AM


Funny. I seem to remember that there was a hue and cry when Aljazeera broadcast pictures of American casualties early in the Iraq war. But Americans could never be so hypocritical, so maybe my memory is going bad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Silent H, posted 09-29-2005 11:11 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Silent H, posted 09-29-2005 1:55 PM Chiroptera has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 80 (247292)
09-29-2005 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Nuggin
09-29-2005 11:40 AM


Re: While offensive, also predictable
Nuggin writes:
This sort of thing tends to creep up whenever our military consists of mostly younger men (18-25). Kind of makes you wonder if they are the sort we want fighting wars.
It is the young brash ones who are not afraid of mortality who fight wars and pull triggers. It is the older men, with a realization of life, who run the countries and the armies. War never looked so grim as the faces of death make it appear.

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 5 of 80 (247321)
09-29-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Chiroptera
09-29-2005 11:47 AM


I seem to remember that there was a hue and cry when Aljazeera broadcast pictures of American casualties early in the Iraq war.
Yep, one might also remember that before the war, the US used nearly the same types of images made by Iraqi soldiers in order to prove how horrible Hussein and the Iraqi army was. We would never do such a...
fuck

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Chiroptera, posted 09-29-2005 11:47 AM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 80 (247354)
09-29-2005 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Silent H
09-29-2005 1:55 PM


Ha ha ha ha. FairWitness got mad at me at one point when I pointed out that Americans were little different, as people, from anyone else in the world.
Oh wait, this isn't funny.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 80 (247355)
09-29-2005 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
09-29-2005 11:11 AM


Hi, holmes.
quote:
That's right, the word "fuck" is too offensive in an article about us soldiers mocking dead enemies using photos they have made.
This reminds me of this article written by Naomi Klein that I first read in The Nation. The article mentions a really, really cool photograph of an American soldier in Iraq. There was evidently some controversy over it (although I never heard of it outside of this article -- but then I don't own a TV and so can't keep up with the news fads). The soldier in the photo was smoking a cigarette, and people complained that it made smoking look cool. As Klein wrote:
Yes, that's right: letter writers from across the nation are united in their outrage - not that the steely-eyed, smoking soldier makes mass killing look cool, but that the laudable act of mass killing makes the grave crime of smoking look cool.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Silent H, posted 09-29-2005 11:11 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 8 of 80 (247357)
09-29-2005 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Chiroptera
09-29-2005 4:17 PM


I had heard of the controversy, but never heard the analysis of the problem stated so well. I just keep having flashbacks to apocalypse now. Somewhere the nation slipped its leash.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Chiroptera, posted 09-29-2005 4:17 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Nuggin, posted 10-02-2005 11:10 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4012 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 9 of 80 (247501)
09-29-2005 11:35 PM


From Holmes` link:
When contacted for this story, a White House spokeswoman said, "If we have a comment, we'll call you back." They never did. But according to Army spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Chris Conway, Pentagon policy may be ambivalent when it comes to soldiers posting pictures of mutilated war victims. "There are policies in place that, on the one hand, safeguard sensitive and classified information, and on the other hand protect the First Amendment rights of service members," he says, adding that field commanders may issue additional directives. "In plain English, if you're on the job working for the Department of Defense, you shouldn't be freelancing. You should be doing your duty."
IOW, it`s not just the grunts who can`t see the question of humanity, but near the top of the food chain--Conroy 'you shouldn`t be freelancing'.

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 10 of 80 (247563)
09-30-2005 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
09-29-2005 11:11 AM


BBC NEWS | Americas | Net body photos inquiry dropped
This BBC article discusses the army dropping it's investigation
"There are multiple challenges here. One is the anonymity of the sources, dates, times, locations, units, anything that is reasonably identifiable that we can work off of."
What, you know, like the actual soldiers shown in the pictures? Can you not manage to identify them from that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Silent H, posted 09-29-2005 11:11 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 11 of 80 (247650)
09-30-2005 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dr Jack
09-30-2005 6:57 AM


What, you know, like the actual soldiers shown in the pictures? Can you not manage to identify them from that?
So I want to get this straight, the military allowed soldiers full access to unrestricted internet usage including anonymous posting of pictures and text, without any ability for the military to trace such posts?
Spies have got it made!

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Dr Jack, posted 09-30-2005 6:57 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 12 of 80 (248110)
10-02-2005 6:07 AM


Moral Quandry (also paging Iraq War supporters)
Many people here seem to think I feel that I know everything, and have a cemented moral/factual viewpoint which is unshakeable. Well this is one of those subjects which should help erode that image. I find myself lost on this particular issue.
Lets start with the easy stuff.
One of the pretexts of needing to remove Hussein, the next largest outside of wmds, is that his troops did this exact same thing. Tapes and images of brutal death were exhibited by our news media, and backed by this administration, as absolute proof of how horrible and corrupt the Hussein ADMINISTRATION was. Now we are allowing it to happen within our own troops. If we can kick out people for being gay, yet allow this to happen, we are corrupt. We are now just as bad as them... them being Hussein's regime, not "terrorists". This administration has allowed our side to sink to their level: corrupt, criminal, and brutal.
The soldiers involved are commiting war crimes. Whether one wishes to defend the actions on any other ground, this is still pretty non negotiable as fact (though supporters should feel free to try). The exhibition of dead and wounded enemies or populations you are responsible for is patently illegal, this goes double when the action is ongoing and the exhibition is for the purpose of gloating. I also find it improper and unhealthy in a practical sense (it cannot help Iraqis and Afghanis deal with us in a good way in the future), as well as morally repugnant.
Frankly I would really like to hear what any of the Iraq War supporters at EvC have to say about this practice by our soldiers, and what it means given that it is the behavior we said we did not engage in and if so we'd punish those involved. It has happened, and we are not stopping it.
But to move on to my moral quandry...
The website which began receiving these posts (and accompanying text) has given an explanation/defense of its actions. It is as follows:
Some have questioned why we republish explicit, even gruesome, images of wartime violence. One only need look back to World War II when most images of dead soldiers were censored by the government, and no cameras were allowed on the battlefield. Such whitewashing of the truth is at odds with the First Amendment freedoms that this country enjoys. These soldiers fought to preserve our freedoms, and the truth has a way of coming out. As Time Magazine said when it published the first wartime casualty photos of 3 dead soldiers on a beach in New Guinea being washed up in the tide: Dead men have indeed died in vain if live men refuse to look at them. We agree.
I think this explanation fails as it has absolutely nothing to do with what the website is portraying. The quote in question addresses viewing our own dead, viewed respectfully. Unless he wants to argue that his site is for terrorists and don't want them to have died in vain? Doubtful. This appears to be an attempt to whitewash the truth.
But that does not mean the website owner is wrong.
I'm a humongous freedom of speech fanatic. Outside of libel, incitement, security secrets (and to some extent pure advertising), I do not believe that there is any communication which can cause harm and so require elimination or large criminal sanction.
Indeed I do believe that patently objectionable material is important to preserve and have publicly available as it obviously has moral connotations for the recipient. It tells us of a reality giving us the best mirror and light source by which to evaluate ourselves.
Thus from a theoretical/ideological standpoint I would support this website's actions as an open forum which not only allows communication on a topic but preserves that communication for any side to react to.
HOWEVER, the actions of the soldiers are warcrimes. Such activity was made illegal in because it is recognized as so morally outrageous a behavior when conducted by ones enemies, that one wants to proscribe its activity within the code of military conduct. It thus creates a line between legitimate warfare and chaos where anything an everything (including torture) is allowed. In this sense exhibition in a degrading way is torture (even after death).
And in a practical sense it recognizes that the moral insult involved would constitute incitement to some degree. It both encourages bloodlust and dehumanization within the aggressor, and desire for vengeance within the target population.
Encouragement of anything is nothing in a normal life setting, but war is not that at all. That setting involves actual killing and heightened emotions, and so encouragement to greater violence and dehumanization can have real world detrimental effects.
Thus there is reason for its illegality, along the lines of incitement and practical security issues during war.
In that sense, is the site itself assisting in a warcrime, or is it merely a neutral vehicle for communicating and archiving warcrimes for us to then respond to as we can and should?
He certainly did not ask for those kinds of communications. He merely received them and allowed them to stand as is. But still without that site having allowed it, the soldiers have been rewarded for having commited warcrimes.
That is the legal issue.
Morally, it is courageous and honest to allow this kind of communication and to preserve it from censorship. At the same time it is quite cruel to those who are on the receiving end of this criminal act of torture, as well as corrupting by rewarding those commiting the crimes. Is the owner morally culpable as an assistant or vehicle of these actions, or can his commitment to another cause excuse the fact that he might be used by others?
This is the moral issue.
I might also ask if this would be any different if the wars were not currently being waged? Criminally and morally?
Seriously need help working this one through.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-02-2005 7:02 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 15 by RAZD, posted 10-02-2005 11:01 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 17 by Nuggin, posted 10-02-2005 11:12 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 80 (248115)
10-02-2005 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Silent H
10-02-2005 6:07 AM


Re: Moral Quandry (also paging Iraq War supporters)
I wonder also: does it matter what the intentions of the host of the material are? If the images were posted somewhere like CrisisPictures.org (WARNING: graphic images), whose mission is "to show other Americans what is being done in our name", then would that make a difference?
I'm inclined to think that almost anything goes when it's likely to spread anti-war sentiment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Silent H, posted 10-02-2005 6:07 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Silent H, posted 10-02-2005 7:24 AM Funkaloyd has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 14 of 80 (248116)
10-02-2005 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Funkaloyd
10-02-2005 7:02 AM


Re: Moral Quandry (also paging Iraq War supporters)
I wonder also: does it matter what the intentions of the host of the material are?
I think that may make some moral difference of hosting as the nature of the action has changed, however moral culpability for the underlying act may remain as well as this making little difference on the criminal aspect.
This is not to fully answer your question, but to set limits where I think it may or may not effect.
I'm inclined to think that almost anything goes when it's likely to spread anti-war sentiment.
This I am not so sure I can agree with. Essentially what you are arguing is that as long as it has a political purpose you agree with then you say anything goes. That would be a bit hypocritical if you would not then support someone running it in order to support our actions there (essentially what the soldiers are doing, by dehumanizing and distancing themselves from the horror).
Or maybe I should put it this way, if you say it is fine for one purpose why can another not find another purpose?
I think my problem is that regardless of political purpose, it serves the function of both allowing/preserving communication on a controversial topic and assisting a practical moral/legal outrage. The former I support, the latter I do not, even if I were to agree with the person's political persuasion.
But maybe purpose should play a part in the calculation? If so, how is this done without without hypocrisy/inconsistency?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-02-2005 7:02 AM Funkaloyd has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 28 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-02-2005 7:53 PM Silent H has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 15 of 80 (248153)
10-02-2005 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Silent H
10-02-2005 6:07 AM


Re: Moral Quandry (also paging Iraq War supporters)
Your conflict is between the Geneva Conventions (an international treaty signed by the US and thus part of US law) and Freedom of Speech (a part of our constitution). The conventions are also based on the rights of people, as is our constitution.
Personally I have had the opinion that some ways of conveying a message are {vile}, and that if the message can be conveyed by other means that there is no need for the {vile} method. In this category are words of profanity: they do not add to the message, and I have no moral quandry with prohibiting such forms of message (a distinction between form and content).
Simple pictures of dead Americans, Iraqis, civilians, insurgents whatever, show the carnage of war, and this message deserves to be delivered.
Pictures of people celebrating the deaths of others (whether american or iraqi) do not show the carnage of war, they show the debasement of the people that mock the dead. The question then becomes whether we are commenting on the debased behavior or joining with it.
A very quick and supeficial look at Geneva Convention found
All Types of Amorous Relationships: Swingers, Open and More
dead prisoners of war
Burial of the dead must be carried out individually if possible and must be preceded by a careful examination in order to confirm death and establish identity. The burials should be honorable and, if possible, according to the rites of the religion to which the deceased belonged. Graves must be properly maintained, with adequate record keeping, so that they may be found later. (Convention III, Art. 120)
Cremation can take place only for imperative reasons of hygiene or if required by the religion of the deceased. Ashes must be kept until proper disposal is possible. (Convention III, Art. 120)
And I can't think of treating dead soldiers or dead civilians any different.
in fact there is this section too:
civilian immunity
Civilians have special protections under Convention IV, Protocol I, and Protocol II.
They must be treated humanely, without discrimination based on race, color, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or other similar criteria.
Violence to life and person including murder, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture are prohibited.
Outrages upon personal dignity, including humiliating and degrading treatment are prohibited.
Sentences and executions without a judgment from a regularly constituted court and without benefit of the standard judicial guarantees are prohibited. (Convention IV, Art. 3)
See civilian population, women, murder, rape, torture, discrimination, civilian property, places of worship, cultural objects, grave breaches, and indiscriminate bombing to start with.
Does one have a right to commit atrocities?
Of course this administration thinks that the conventions don't apply to them, just the rest of the world.
We can't pick the rights to use or discard without discarding all of them.
Not sure that helped.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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