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Author Topic:   Don't turn my God-fearing kid gay!
mick
Member (Idle past 5008 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 151 of 196 (204183)
05-01-2005 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by joshua221
05-01-2005 6:41 PM


since the beginning of time? What about ancient greece, where having sex with boys was considered par for the course for any aspiring philopher, including Plato (from whom you derive your notion of universality, by the way). in ancient greece, the military believed that homosexuality was a good thing because it generated a sense of comradeship. People who didn't give up their gayness at adulthood were rather ridiculed, but it was definitely considered normal and virtuous for an adventurous young man to have plenty of gay sex before time came for them to be a good member of society and have a family.
mick
[edited to add image of cheerful greek gay encounter. They put this stuff onto their dinnerware!]
[edited again to point out, I think that's just a suggestive twist of cloth, and not his cock]
Edited by AdminJar to size the picture
edited again. I couldn't resist adding this wine vase showing some cheerful fellows making wine (probably prior to a gay orgy). For some reason these chaps have horse's tails (both front and rear )
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 05-02-2005 11:35 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by joshua221, posted 05-01-2005 6:41 PM joshua221 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by cmanteuf, posted 05-02-2005 11:08 AM mick has replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 5008 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 152 of 196 (204209)
05-01-2005 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by joshua221
05-01-2005 6:41 PM


anti-gay societies are "unnatural"
society has [considered homosexuality abnormal] since the beginning of time
The important thing about your point is that society can be changed. It isn't a fact of nature.
Many would say that homosexuality IS a fact of nature. Therefore it's human society that is "unnatural".
National Geographic website writes:
Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it. So go the lyrics penned by U.S. songwriter Cole Porter.
Porter, who first hit it big in the 1920s, wouldn't risk parading his homosexuality in public. In his day "the birds and the bees" generally meant only one thingsex between a male and female.
But, actually, some same-sex birds do do it. So do beetles, sheep, fruit bats, dolphins, and orangutans. Zoologists are discovering that homosexual and bisexual activity is not unknown within the animal kingdom.
Roy and Silo, two male chinstrap penguins at New York's Central Park Zoo have been inseparable for six years now. They display classic pair-bonding behaviorentwining of necks, mutual preening, flipper flapping, and the rest. They also have sex, while ignoring potential female mates.
Wild birds exhibit similar behavior. There are male ostriches that only court their own gender, and pairs of male flamingos that mate, build nests, and even raise foster chicks.
Filmmakers recently went in search of homosexual wild animals as part of a National Geographic Ultimate Explorer documentary about the female's role in the mating game. (The film, Girl Power, will be screened in the U.S this Saturday at 8 p.m. ET, 5 p.m PT on MSNBC TV.)
The team caught female Japanese macaques engaged in intimate acts which, if observed in humans, would be in the X-rated category.
"The homosexual behavior that goes on is completely baffling and intriguing," says National Geographic Ultimate Explorer correspondent, Mireya Mayor. "You would have thought females that want to be mated, especially over their fertile period, would be seeking out males."
Well, perhaps, in a roundabout way, they are seeking males, suggests primatologist Amy Parish.
She argues that female macaques may enhance their social position through homosexual intimacy which in turn influences breeding success. Parish says, "Taking something that's nonreproductive, like mounting another femaleif it leads to control of a resource or acquisition of a resource or a good alliance partner, that could directly impact your reproductive success."
Sexual Gratification
On the other hand, they could just be enjoying themselves, suggests Paul Vasey, animal behavior professor at the University of Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada. "They're engaging in the behavior because it's gratifying sexually or it's sexually pleasurable," he says. "They just like it. It doesn't have any sort of adaptive payoff."
Matthew Grober, biology professor at Georgia State University, agrees, saying, "If [sex] wasn't fun, we wouldn't have any kids around. So I think that maybe Japanese macaques have taken the fun aspect of sex and really run with it."
The bonobo, an African ape closely related to humans, has an even bigger sexual appetite. Studies suggest 75 percent of bonobo sex is nonreproductive and that nearly all bonobos are bisexual. Frans de Waal, author of Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, calls the species a "make love, not war" primate. He believes bonobos use sex to resolve conflicts between individuals.
Other animals appear to go through a homosexual phase before they become fully mature. For instance, male dolphin calves often form temporary sexual partnerships, which scientists believe help to establish lifelong bonds. Such sexual behavior has been documented only relatively recently. Zoologists have been accused of skirting round the subject for fear of stepping into a political minefield.
"There was a lot of hiding of what was going on, I think, because people were maybe afraid that they would get into trouble by talking about it," notes de Waal. Whether it's a good idea or not, it's hard not make comparisons between humans and other animals, especially primates. The fact that homosexuality does, after all, exist in the natural world is bound to be used against people who insist such behavior is unnatural.
added in edit: you have to check out this wonderful article: http://www.subversions.com/french/pages/science/animals.html
it gives a rather beautiful view of bonobo homosexuality - we (humans) should be more like them. Yes, i am proposing widespread bisexuality as a way of making people more chilled out. I can't wait to have kids of my own, I'm going to bring 'em up proper!
This message has been edited by mick, 05-01-2005 11:38 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by joshua221, posted 05-01-2005 6:41 PM joshua221 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Silent H, posted 05-02-2005 6:19 AM mick has replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 5008 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 157 of 196 (204303)
05-02-2005 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Silent H
05-02-2005 6:19 AM


Re: anti-gay societies are "unnatural"
Holmes writes:
First of all bonobos are not homosexual, they simply have no set sexual identities at all.
Now I'm not entirely convinced that this is correct. I don't have any evidence on this matter yet, but it just seems wrong to me. It seems wrong to say that humans are born either homosexual or heterosexual, one or the other, but that bonobos "have no set sexual identities". It is reductionism turned upside down, so that human sexuality is apparently a mechanical thing fixed for eternity at birth, but the sexuality of other animals is fluid and complex.
This to me is just as ridiculous as saying you are proposing widespread heterosexuality. It is a utopian ideal which will not fit everyone, will certainly not answer all of society's ills, nor even be enjoyed by your kids.
Yes of course. I was being kind of tongue in cheek here. Though I must say, if I was allowed to have sex with whoever I wanted, and got to live up trees, then I'd probably be a happier person...
That is of course not to mention they don't have a lot of foreplay and the sex acts take a few seconds.
Sounds like you've been talking to my missus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Silent H, posted 05-02-2005 6:19 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Silent H, posted 05-02-2005 12:16 PM mick has not replied
 Message 167 by mick, posted 05-02-2005 8:27 PM mick has not replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 5008 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 158 of 196 (204305)
05-02-2005 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by cmanteuf
05-02-2005 11:08 AM


I would say that homosexual acts were widespread in Greece and Rome, but homosexuality was not. By homosexuality I mean exclusively homosexual individuals.
In fact in both societies, anybody who was exclusively homosexual was considered effeminate. But this was largely because being a good father and rearing children for the benefit of the empire was highly honoured, and having successful healthy children was considered the pinnacle of achievement for a middle-class man. In these societies, as long as one took one's reproductive responsibilities seriously and had a proper family, one was permitted to engage in homosexual acts on the side.
In Rome this reproductive responsibility was taken much more seriously than in Sparta, and may explain why Rome didn't have the demographic problems of Sparta.
What I'm trying to say in all of this is that homosexual acts haven't been considered abnormal or abhorrent throughout history. This is an argument against people who say that the abnormality of homosexual acts is a cultural universal. I would be willing to grant that such universals may exist (for example incest avoidance seems very widespread) but I don't think attitudes towards homosexuality fall into this category.
Mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by cmanteuf, posted 05-02-2005 11:08 AM cmanteuf has not replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 5008 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 167 of 196 (204422)
05-02-2005 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by mick
05-02-2005 11:36 AM


Re: anti-gay societies are "unnatural"
hi holmes, sorry but something weird happened. About two thirds of my post is missing...
Will give a proper post shortly...
Mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by mick, posted 05-02-2005 11:36 AM mick has not replied

  
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