Senator Al Franken?

Ah, how'd that "R" get in there - good catch. I'll fix it.--Percy

This hypothetical and your view of what happened to you does not match any fact pattern for any of the relevant cases. All of the women involved in the public cases under discussion say that it happened and that it was a big deal. With regards to the cases involving minors, I don't care whether the women are okay with it or not.In addition, Franken appears to be involved in a series of similar incidents rather than a single incident that can be explained away as you do your own incident.Since only you and one other woman is involved, and that woman is not trying to hold a position of responsibility in government, I'm satisfied with whatever handling of the incident you did. Similarly, I don't expect to see Al Franken, or Conyers, or Moore arrested. But I don't want those folks in Congress.Your mileage may vary.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

It's very interesting to see your treatment of Faith and yet you cannot understand when you are behaving exactly like her: Message 1268 (The Tension of Faith): So, let's take a look at your response: So three lines. But that's never a good sign to someone who has been avoiding the issue. One more time, integrity requires defending your actions and arguments. You don't get to just ignore things and think nobody notices.If you want to show that I am "combative", then you're going to have to show it through discussion. You're going to have to produce meaningful responses to the evidence that proves you have a hypocritical philosophy that combines with your mendacious actions. My message is still there if you can somehow find the wits to come up with more than a moronic non-response.It happened to me. Was I sexually assaulted, Percy?If I wasn't, then by what justification do you call for Franken to resign?This gets to continue and stop being about your pathetic attempts to avoid responsibility for your actions as soon as you engage and defend your own argument:When you say, "I believe the women," what does that mean? It happened to me, Percy. Was I sexually assaulted?

NoNukes responds to me:

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This hypothetical and your view of what happened to you does not match any fact pattern for any of the relevant cases. All of the women involved in the public cases under discussion say that it happened and that it was a big deal.

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And I don't recall saying whether or not I thought it was a big deal. In fact, I made a point to ask if the argument changes based upon my reaction. You remembered to read the post before responding to it, didn't you? Since you seem to have missed it, here it is again: I've highlighted the appropriate section. Did you miss it?Oh, and by the way: What happened to Tweeden is *EXACTLY* what happened to me: My scene partner stuck her tongue in my mouth without my consent.So was I sexually assaulted? Why is this question so difficult for everybody to answer? There was no investigation of Franken and here you are certain that you don't want him in office. So clearly you found it easy to answer the question of whether or not these women were sexually assaulted. Because if he didn't sexually assault them, why the call for him to resign?Why is it so difficult to answer it with regard to me? Is it because you don't have the luxury of being some random yahoo who doesn't have to face any of the parties involved? It's easy to pontificate when you're well-removed from the scenario, isn't it? Not that you don't have a right to your opinion, of course, but rather that things become difficult when there's a real person standing in front of you connected to your opinion.

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With regards to the cases involving minors, I don't care whether the women are okay with it or not.

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Minors? When did Franken get accused by a minor? Are you confusing Moore for Franken?

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In addition, Franken appears to be involved in a series of similar incidents rather than a single incident that can be explained away as you do your own incident.

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Really? When you read my mind, is it like tuning in a radio station where you only hear me or is it like being at a cocktail party where you hear everybody's thoughts and you have to strain to pay attention to mine?Sweetie, honey, baby, pussycat, I have had the gamut of sexual impropriety put upon me from being peeped to being groped to being raped. All by women, I might point out. But let's turn the tables and talk about things that I have done.In the last play I was in, the blocking was for me to bring out another actor as if she were a mannequin. That meant her stiffening her body and me turning her sideways, parallel to the floor to bring her on. One arm was over her legs and the other was around her torso. On more than one occasion, I realized as I was carrying her out that the hand around her torso was also on her breast. And not just casually touching but holding on hard. And when I did put her down, the hand around her legs would slide up and graze her ass as I pulled away.Same show, at one point I had to come up behind my scene partner, wrapping my cloak around her at the neck, my head right against hers as I menacingly talked in her ear. On more than one occasion, I realized that my crotch was pressed up right against her ass.Did I sexually assault these women? Was I simply trying to make sure I didn't drop the woman and was paying attention more to her center of gravity than where my hand was? Was her arm pressed against mine to help us maintain balance and thus was a bit trapped between her arm and her body with no real way to get out except by that path (since I was about a foot taller than her to begin with)? Was I simply "getting into the scene" and paying more attention to not choking her with my arm or the cape than where my crotch was?The simple fact of the matter is that I grabbed one woman's breast and grazed her ass and I shoved my crotch into the ass of another.Did I sexually assault them? My intention is not magic. It doesn't make what I did not happen and doesn't alter their reactions to it.So did I sexually assault these women? Neither one mentioned it to me. I'll leave it to you to ponder whether or not I mentioned it to them...since you seem to be able to read my mind, perhaps you can tell me.And interestingly, will it be easier for you to answer that question than to answer the question as to whether or not I was assaulted?

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Since only you and one other woman is involved

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See, this is what you get for pretending that you can read my mind. I have a whole slew of examples to give you.

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and that woman is not trying to hold a position of responsibility in government

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Not that you would know.Besides, why does that have any bearing on the case? Either I was sexually assaulted or I wasn't. Why is this question so difficult to answer.If Franken didn't sexually assault these women, why did people demand him to resign...and did so when the only one we knew about was Tweeden?

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I'm satisfied with whatever handling of the incident you did.

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Why? Do you even know what that was? I only told you that I talked to her about it and that she apologized. I didn't say one word about what happened next.Because that requires an answer to the question that nobody seems to have the balls to give:Was I sexually assaulted?Look, I get it: Nobody wants to run the risk of saying, "No, you weren't," and having me jump all over them for "not believing me." Let me assure you that I won't. I've made my peace with it. I will ask you to explain why.Nobody wants to say, "No, you weren't," and then have me question why the double standard. That, however, is the risk for that is the point: If what happened to me wasn't sexual assault, why is it with regard to Franken? Now, I can come up with an idea as to the difference, but I'm not the one digging his heels in and refusing to engage. I haven't said whether or not I think Franken should have resigned. But those who do think he should have need to explain themselves as to why.It happened to me.Was I sexually assaulted?

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Similarly, I don't expect to see Al Franken, or Conyers, or Moore arrested. But I don't want those folks in Congress.

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Did you just equate these three? Are you seriously saying that what Franken did is the same as what Moore did?We're back to my original question: When you say you "believe the women," what does that mean? Why is this so hard to answer? Is it really impossible to simultaneously believe both Franken's accusers and Franken?And that, as I originally said, the situation is complicated?

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Your mileage may vary.

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I know what my mileage is, not that you would know for I haven't said what it is.I'm asking you to justify your mileage. And that begins by answering the exceedingly simple question I have had to ask over a dozen times in this one thread but which nobody wants to answer:It happened to me. Was I sexually assaulted?When you say you "believe the women," what does that mean?

I'll jump in. When someone says that they believe the women, they are saying that if the women perceived the incident as sexual than it was in fact sexual. Had Franken challenged the women rather than publically apologizing to anyone and everyone, it may have turned out differently. Note that you confronted your antagonist immediately after the play. In Franken's case, however, the incident was unknown to him until now. Your assailant claimed that she had no idea that she had assaulted you. He likely felt the same way. Of course, i am speculating, here...I have no insight into the truth of the matter.

Phat responds to me:

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When someone says that they believe the women, they are saying that if the women perceived the incident as sexual than it was in fact sexual.

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Yes, but what does that mean? Reaction is magic? If intent isn't magic, why would inference be?In my own case, there is no question about what happened. There is no question that it was sexual. It wasn't like she was trying to lick the inside of my mouth so that she could taste me. We weren't "baby birding." It was a sexual scene and we were presenting a sexual act.Was I sexually *assaulted*?

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Had Franken challenged the women rather than publically apologizing to anyone and everyone, it may have turned out differently.

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Well, given the current climate, it seems that if he hadn't, he'd still have his job. After all, it's only the people who have admitted it who have been punished.That said, he has contradicted some of the accusers. This goes back to my question: Was I sexually assaulted? Does it all depend upon my reaction?Note, this doesn't change how I *feel* about what happened but surely we aren't saying that Franken *is* a sexual predator simply because somebody *feels* it to be so, are we?

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Note that you confronted your antagonist immediately after the play.

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Why does that matter? After all, isn't one of the things we point out that the women told other people about what happened at the time even if they didn't confront the person who did it? Why does my feeling of confidence in talking to the person who did this change whether or not I was assaulted? It may change how I feel about it, but it doesn't change what happened, does it?

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In Franken's case, however, the incident was unknown to him until now. Your assailant claimed that she had no idea that she had assaulted you. He likely felt the same way. Of course, i am speculating, here...I have no insight into the truth of the matter.

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That's what he has said. That's why he has denied some of his accusers while acknowledging others. Do we not believe him, too?One of the accusers says that when she went to have her picture taken with him, he reached around her (as you do when taking a picture) and grabbed her breast. She then says that, "He knew what he was doing."He denies that he grabbed her breast deliberately.Is it not possible to simultaneously believe both the accusers and Franken? That the situation is complicated?

Complicated is a good word for it. When we have a situation involving two adults, how would an ethics committee approach any line of questioning?We have intentions. Actions. And context. For example, if the incident occurred at a party in a social setting, would it be any different than were it at work? And what standards should be set for a member of Congress that are above the standards and ethics expected out of anyone?I think that trial by media is not a healthy precedent.

Someday I'll get up the gung-ho to do my grand message, but not now. Nobody responded to my message.While they are not really being served by the lack of an ethics committee hearing, I do thing the the metoo movement is being protected by such. And it seems that the Franken resignation (AFAIK promised but still not done) is party to that protection.What I suspect would come out of an ethics committee hearing, is that some of those "women should be believed" would be exposed as "women whose truth should be doubted".I find some sort of irony in that it was the Tweedon photo and story that launched this situation. A photo and story that I find to be highly suspect (aka likely largely bullshit). And the metooers followed up on that.I think that when that photo came out, Franken was immediately branded as "convicted pervert" by many. Then a sort of "pile on the pervert" happened. Maybe some "lying for moral justice"???Moose

Phat, you still haven't answered the question:Was I sexually assaulted?

given that it was an aggressive move and that it was a sexual move, yes.

When a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?

You are one of the two parties involved. So yes, both your impression and her impression are relevant. Despite your claim not to have expressed your opinion, you appear to have accepted her explanation.I'll also add, that even if she kissed you without your prior consent or without asking, it does matter whether or not you were okay with it after the fact. At least as far as sexual assault is concerned. On the job harassment is a more complicated issue.In any event, if you tell me about a series of folks claiming that the same woman assaulted them, I think that does give me more data to form an opinion. I have formed my option about Franken and your story does nothing to persuade me otherwise. It does not even introduce any doubt. You tell me. If you aren't going to give me your side of the story, then you haven't come close to presenting the same pictures that we have of Moore's and Franken's accusers. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

This reminds me of a sentiment expressed in one of the news articles I read concerning the Tweeden image: photo of a famous comedian hamming it up a year before he knew he'd be running for the Senate.To be clear, they said a lot more, that was just one of the possible ways they described of viewing the matter.--Percy

Well, you got my attention this time. Yeah, there's such an upside to coming forward with accusations of sexual harassment. I can't believe all women don't do it. Why can't everyone understand this and just ignore the obviously spurious charges against Franken and Trump and Moore and Weinstein and all the rest?Apologies for the sarcasm. There does seem to me a difference in magnitude of offense between Franken on the one hand and all the rest on the other. And I do strongly believe that Franken is entitled to a hearing before the Ethics Committee.I know that last must seem contradictory given my calls for Franken's resignation right from the first, but that was when I truly believed that he knew what he had done. Now I'm not so sure. The human mind is a strange and complex thing, and though deep in my heart I believe the women, Franken does seem to genuinely believe they are mistaken.Of course, since I believe the women I think he's lucky to have avoided the Ethics Committee, believing it would have come out very badly for him. Still, I've stated that I liked Franken, and I still like Franken, and were I a Minnesota resident I would vote for him for Senator again, but only after he'd risen before microphones and stated, "I did it, I regret it, and I apologize, both for my actions and for my later denials."--Percy

Phat responds to me:

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given that it was an aggressive move and that it was a sexual move, yes.

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OK, so what happens next? If I say I felt violated, what happens to her? If I say that it was just an accident, that I completely understand that she was just "getting into the scene" and momentarily forgot herself, what then?Is it possible that both things might be true at the same time? What if I say that I understand that it was an accident but that I still feel violated?This is the problem with the phrase, "I believe the women." That doesn't actually tell us anything. Yeah, we can believe her that it happened (which in and of itself is a milestone) and that she feels the way that she does.But that doesn't tell us how we should treat the other person. Should she have been summarily fired from the production if I had made a complaint? Should she no longer be cast? What if she went on to work with kids? Does this have any bearing? Should she run for office, would this be a disqualifying act?