Senator Al Franken?

I have been involved in partner dancing since around 2000, much of that time having been post-divorce. A lot of close-quarter moves, hands constantly seeking neutral physical connection points. Not always successfully. While I do not doubt that that's seen as an opportunity by some guys, I do try to be careful (at least one partner had commented on how quickly I could get my hand out of trouble). I remember another guy with a beginner when without warning she spun in place before he could get his right hand on her back out of the way of the speed bumps. Similarly, recently in class my partner and I were in a dance position that we dropped out of during instruction, my hand dropped, I misjudged our positions, and accidentally brushed her butt for which I immediately apologized. Accidents happen regardless of how much we try to prevent them.Photos with strangers such as Franken was doing in the "state fair situation" involves getting physically close. Where do the hands go? Where exactly are all parts of her? Do I know where the neutral spots are? Can I calculate precisely where they are located given the physical size and distribution of this total stranger? So many opportunities for impropriety. So many opportunities for stupid accidents. Which is which?In the case of female partner dancers, most of them are aware of the situation. One older woman even told me that she took to wearing padded bras so that she wouldn't notice when it happened. But women off the street (boy, did that not sound right!) ... But female members of the public getting their celebrity photo for the first time would not be aware of the potentials for mispositioning or misplacement of hands, etc. In these cases, the actual events are not as important as the woman's perception of what happened. For that matter, that is key for everything.For anyone who wants to build or argue the case, I would suggest that they re-enact the scene of the crime, like many CSI shows do. What does the blood splatter of a crime scene tell us? Well, let's re-enact various versions of the crime and see just what blood splatter patterns we find -- on a software development team, our major concern when our code "hit the wall" (AKA crashed) was to examine the splatter pattern in order to figure out what had failed. Take your own state fair photo pose with many different women and document what kinds of inappropriate hand placement you commit. I had a conversation with a local community college audio-visual guru tonight. He was remembering when the Vietnamese refugees first arrived and were first entering our SoCal society. They, especially the women, were acting within the norms of their own society, which gave an entirely different message to instructors and most especially to law enforcement. Their entire upbringing taught them to not look a superior in the eye while our LE had learned that if they don't look you in the eye then they are lying to you. For myself, I have found that Japanese, Korean, and Chinese woman will stick their tongue out whe they make a mistake, whereas to us West Europeans that is a disrespectful or even defiant gesture.When two different cultures come into contact, all kinds of really stupid misunderstandings can result. Hugs? When I was separated and then divorced and associated with singles groups, I was nearly shocked by how women would hug me as a common greeting and parting -- and these were conservative Christian women. So then huggers versus non-huggers is normally a cultural thing. Some cultures typically employ some kind of physical contact while others are really up-tight about such things. The possibilities for misunderstanding abound.Back in 2003 (separation was 16 Aug 2004), the familia was in Mexico for two weeks. Before that time, my suegra (mother-in-law, a wonderful loving woman) had proclaimed me an honorary Mexican. So for two weeks, I lived within the Mexican culture, comfortably so since I had lived in a Mexican family for nearly 28 years. Within that culture, you greeted every opposite-sex person (eg, a relative or a friend) with a kiss to the cheek. Friends from church got married a week or two after we returned. So quite naturally from the culture I had just been a part of, I gave the bride a kiss on the cheek. So as a Mexican I had done what just came naturally as a sign of affection. What the bride thought, I cannot say.The point here is that cultural differences can cause many misunderstandings.Tonight on Progress Radio, the guest was a woman of color who had gone through some of this stuff. At one point, there was the question of consent and how fluid it can be. A person in the pressure of the moment could give consent at something at that moment which ends up being traumatic to him/her.

I know that. But he nearly won. Almost half of the people who voted either didn't believe the allegations or didn't care if they were true. If he chooses to run again, he might very well win.

From Sen. Al Franken's accusers and their allegations against him

• Leeann Tweeden: unwanted tongue kiss and a groping photo.
• Lindsay Menz: Butt grab at the Minnesota State Fair
• Anonymous #1: Butt grab at teh Minnesota Women's Political Caucus
• Anonymous #2: Butt grab and suggested bathroom visit at Minneapolis Democratic fundraiser
• Stephanie Kemplin: Breast grope during photo while on Kuwait USO tour
• Anonymous #3, elected official: Wet, open-mouthed kiss at conclusion of Franken radio program
• Anonymous #4, former congressional aide: Ducked kiss at conclusion of Franken radio program
• Tina Dupuy: Waist groping

This is a lot of women to not believe, especially because of the pattern, and more especially because it's likely just the tip of the iceberg. Glad you put "hugger" in quotes. How convenient for him, as if that makes it okay. The women's stories would have changed category from allegations to testimony before a congressional committee which can make recommendations to the full Senate such as censure and expulsion. The ethics committee hasn't investigated sexual harassment or assault allegations in 25 years, Axios reports - I wonder if Franken knew that when he invited investigation.--Percy

And the reason they haven't is ...... the allegations were being "settled" (paid off) with taxpayer money, so the amounts and the perps would not be a matter of public record and continue to sit in congress and on committees ... like the ethics committee?Certainly having a hearing on Franken would open the door to exposing these other accusations, particularly if Franken was one.And I still think there is no comparison between Al Franken's alleged actions and the alleged statutory rape by Moore and Trump and the admitted sexual assault of women by Trump in the Hollywood Bus tapes, grabbing by the p***y -- attempted rape?One is inappropriate behavior for an elected official, the other is a prosecutable offense.But now, even worse (imho) is the walking back of democrats on Franken's resignation: it becomes situational morality all over again.

RAZD responds to me:

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Consider a person going down the street and patting people on the butt -- should they be put on a sexual predator registry? I think not, just told it isn't appropriate.

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Really? Don't we need a lot more information before we can determine if it was merely "inappropriate"?F'rinstance, how old is this person? There's a difference between a four-year-old doing this and a forty-year-old. We presume that the four-year-old doesn't know any better and thus we can let the kid off with a lecture about appropriate behaviour. The forty-year-old, on the other hand, should know better.But what if it's one of those pranks? We've all seen the YouTube videos where people will get up behind a guy who is walking near a woman, tap her on the butt in such a way that she thinks it's the other guy, and vanish so that she turns her wrath on him. Suppose we got this guy thinking that he's being part of such a prank only the prank is really on him?As an aside regarding those prank videos, usually the woman is in on it...she knows she's gonna get touched by the guy who is in on it...but then she turns around and slugs the guy they're pranking. So they've decided to use a prank about sexual assault to justify physically assaulting someone. There are other videos of people deliberately trying to scare people. "It's just a prank!"Yeah, but you still physically assaulted someone. You just scared someone. Intent is not magic and the fact that you didn't "mean" to do something doesn't mean it didn't happen. How fortunate you are that the people you've decided to prank are willing to forgive and laugh. At some point, someone isn't going to think it's so funny.And then what do we do? Well, with pranksters, they don't really have an excuse of saying, "I didn't know." Yeah, you did. You were counting on it. The entire prank doesn't work unless you set up an instance of assault/fright. So I think a little bit more than just a talking to regarding "inappropriate" is in order.What if it's someone who is known for this sort of behaviour? This happens on the Japanese commuter trains all the time. Some trains are specifically for women only because there are too many men who specifically and deliberately do this to women. To say that they just need to be told that "it isn't appropriate" isn't nearly enough.

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A kiss with tongue falls into that category -- it's inappropriate, but it's not necessarily sexual.

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Why not? Was I sexually assaulted? That's what happened to me.

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Grabbing a breast is sexual assault.

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Why? Did I sexually assault my scene partner? That's what I did to her.

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My experience - when I was 19 that involved me being too drunk to stand, and a person unzipped me and fondled my boys - was sexual assault. It was not a kiss. It was not a request.

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And that's happened to me, too.Why would them sticking their hand in your pants be sexual assault but not their tongue in your mouth?

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Now I do think that sexual harassment and inappropriate touching are not proper for an elected official.

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Until we have an investigation, how do we know?When we say that we "believe the women," what does that mean? For me, it means I believe that what they say happened actually happened and what they are feeling regarding it is serious and not to be dismissed. It isn't "all in their head."That doesn't mean that the other party is suddenly a "sexual predator." We can believe the victim and still think the perpetrator isn't guilty of such a level of crime. Depending upon what happened, it may just be a horrendous accident (for which the perpetrator should still profusely apologize and work to try to not let happen again) or it may have been deliberate. Until we investigate, we'll never know.

Both are prosecutable offenses, although of different degrees. I have some (but not much) sympathy with folks who want to draw a line between them for the purpose of deciding whether Franken should wait of a hearing. But let's not minimize either behavior.As much as it pains me to say so, Franken's behavior is an assault/battery at minimum. Not comparable with rape of course. Also, not comparable to a 30 year old man dragging the malls and high school corridors for chicks, but still unacceptable.Neither is acceptable behavior for a human being, let alone an elected official.

Actually, no. Only you can grant permission with regards to your own body. If you say it was not an assault, as far as I am concerned, that ends the matter.ABE:Beyond the specific point I've commented on, there are plenty of differences between your scenario and the ones Al is involved in. There are no "stage kisses" between a celebrity and his fans. What there is instead is some kind of 'celebrity liberty' wherein celebrities get away with stuff that other folks know not to do, and wherein the victims are supposed to just laugh it off.Well, guess what? That 'liberty' is assault. There is no obligation on the part of women to tolerate that shit.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : add a pronoun antecedent

Percy writes:

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This is a lot of women to not believe

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Who said we don't believe them?It's time you answered the question, Percy:When you say you "believe the women," what does that mean?Are you truly saying that if somebody says it, that's the end of it?Was I sexually harassed, Percy? It happened to me.

NoNukes writes:

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As much as it pains me to say so, Franken's behavior is an assault/battery at minimum.

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What about me? Was I the victim of assault/battery? Did I commit assault/battery? The exact same things happened to me or were perpetrated by me.So if two people take a picture and one reaches around the other and accidentally puts a hand where it shouldn't be, that's sufficient? There's no possible way for it to be an accident? The only way to not be a perpetrator is to be perfect at all times with no exceptions?Note, that doesn't change what happened. The person who feels violated still feels violated. But is it not possible that despite the fact that it happened, it doesn't mean what some people think it means? This doesn't invalidate their feelings, but it also doesn't mean the person who did is some sort of bad person.When we say we "believe the women," what does that mean?

I have answered this question to the best of my ability. If one person shoves his tongue down another person's throat, that is sufficient.

NoNukes responds to me:

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Only you can grant permission with regards to your own body.

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So there's no way for it to be an accident? If I feel that the other person "meant it," then that is sufficient to declare that the other person really did?Do we really get to say that you get to tell me whether I "meant it"? Based solely upon your feelings?

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Beyond the specific point I've commented on, there are plenty of differences between your scenario and the ones Al is involved in.

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No, they're not. The situation with Tweeden is precisely what happened with me: A planned kiss suddenly became something it wasn't planned to be.The situation with the other women is precisely what I did: I put my hand where it shouldn't have been.

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There are no "stage kisses" between a celebrity and his fans.

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And that isn't what Franken did. Instead, he got in close to take a picture, put his hand around the other person (like you do...this is not something out of the ordinary), and that hand went somewhere it shouldn't have.There is no way for it to be an accident? If the person says he meant it, he did? You get to tell me what I meant to do if you don't like what I did?

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What there is instead is some kind of 'celebrity liberty' wherein celebrities get away with stuff that other folks know not to do, and wherein the victims are supposed to just laugh it off.

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What? Where the hell did that come from? Nobody's "laughing it off." Franken apologized.We're back to the question nobody seems to be able to answer:When we say we "believe the women," what does that mean?

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Well, guess what? That 'liberty' is assault. There is no obligation on the part of women to tolerate that shit.

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So I was assaulted? I just want to be clear on this: You are saying that I was assaulted and that I committed assault? There are no accidents? Everything is always on purpose?

NoNukes responds to me:

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I have answered this question to the best of my ability.

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Really? Because I have yet to hear a "yes" or a "no."Which means you haven't answered the question.

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If one person shoves his tongue down another person's throat, that is sufficient.

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So she assaulted me? She should be hounded out of any office she had? If I, like Tweeden, say otherwise, that's insufficient?It's a yes-or-no question, NoNukes. Why is it so hard to answer it simply?

No, that's not what it means. I have told you why I have answered without a yes or no. I have indicated what information is lacking before I can answer your question. Instead of providing that information, you have simply repeated the question.Beyond that, I find your behavior is dishonest. I have also explained to you several times why your situation does not mirror Franken's anyway, so your question is irrelevant.At this point, if you don't have another line of argument, we probably don't have anything further to discuss. Why don't you summarize your conclusions and I will summarize mine?

Do you have any facts to add? Do you believe it was an accident? After all, you were there.If you aren't going to answer those questions, then we don't even have an accuser here. You are so far away from offering an explanation for Franken's situation, that your comments are not worth considering. My conclusion is that you are not on point. You are welcome to the last word on this subthread.

My intent was just to have "hugger" stand out, not to make it a euphemism for "groper". That said, I've come to realize that an undesired hug, regardless of how sincere and well meaning, could very well function as a grope.And indeed, Franken may have been a compulsive hugger. But having a series of women come out saying "he hugged me" sure doesn't have the impact of saying "he groped me". Still, in all, one should be very careful with ones huggings.I've come up with a title for Michael Moore's next documentary - "Huggergate - The Rise and Fall of Senator Al Franken".I've looked some, and have failed to find any video of Franken "working the crowd", such as at the state fair. Such must exist. It would be interesting to see the nature of "the hugger" in action.Moose