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Member Posts: 3971 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 7.1 |
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Author | Topic: Senator Al Franken? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22951 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
For those who doubt the women's stories, a series of audio items in today's New York Times describes the process women endure to report sexual harassment and what happens to them: What Happens When You Report Sexual Harassment?. Here I summarize some of the information:
Reporting sexual harassment has lots of downsides and very little upside. Woman report sexual harassment in the hope that it will make it go away. That's not what usually happens. What usually happens is a chain of negative consequences for the women. Sidenote: Since most sexual harassment occurs in the workplace, I'd like to provide my impressions of HR departments. HR is not a reliable ally for employees with sexual harassment issues. In fact, HR is often not a reliable ally for any low level employee on any issue. Their primary job responsibility is to propagate corporate policy down, not solve employee problems. Is your birthdate improperly recorded in the corporate database? They can help you, and with all kinds of things of that nature. Anything else? Forget it. I've experienced HR from both the management and individual contributor roles. As a manager, they made things happen regarding those reporting to me. As an individual contributor? Zilch. HR is composed of people just like you and me, and they're as baffled and nervous and full of trepidation concerning how to deal with harassment situations as we would be, despite the training they receive. Women should be very wary of reporting sexual harassment to HR. HR departments report to upper management, the head of HR is usually a VP who reports to the CEO, it isn't unusual for harassment claims to go straight to the top, and the response is usually to seek how to most quietly and inexpensively make the problem go away. That usually means sacrificing the person with the least power, the woman. --Percy
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
HR is composed of people just like you and me, and they're as baffled and nervous and full of trepidation concerning how to deal with harassment situations as we would be, despite the training they receive. Women should be very wary of reporting sexual harassment to HR. HR employees have no duty of confidentiality to a complaining employer that is stronger than their first duty to the company. Any woman or man would be well advised to talk to her attorney prior to any consultation with HR on a serious offense involving a senior employee. Of course, that kind of consultation adds an extra level of expense which may never be recouped; it is yet another barrier to even daring to report. If you have a legal grievance against a senior person at a company, you can expect your reviews will start featuring negative observations. You can expect that a paper trail will be started and that behaviors that are routinely tolerated by the company will become issues for you. You won't be selected for special projects that will enhance the careers of the folks who succeed in those assignments. In short, folks who report sexual harassment to HR should be prepared to leave their place of employment. It is small wonder that folks often file these things on the way out the door, or after they have left. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 262 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
NoNukes responds to me:
quote:quote:No, that's not what it means. Well, yes, it does. It shows that you are uncomfortable answering it. Here is what you wrote (why does nobody seem to remember that we can all look back and see what you wrote?) Message 212 This hypothetical and your view of what happened to you does not match any fact pattern for any of the relevant cases. All of the women involved in the public cases under discussion say that it happened and that it was a big deal. With regards to the cases involving minors, I don't care whether the women are okay with it or not. In addition, Franken appears to be involved in a series of similar incidents rather than a single incident that can be explained away as you do your own incident. Since only you and one other woman is involved, and that woman is not trying to hold a position of responsibility in government, I'm satisfied with whatever handling of the incident you did. Similarly, I don't expect to see Al Franken, or Conyers, or Moore arrested. But I don't want those folks in Congress. Your mileage may vary. There's no answer there. Instead, you try to fob it off on me. But let's actually analyze what you said. "This hypothetical." What just a fucking minute. What happened to me was "hypothetical"? Or was what happened to Tweeden "hypothetical"? I was willing to let it go the first time, but you've decided to pretend that you've got some sort of moral high ground here so all pretense of civility has just been tossed. "does not match any fact pattern for any of the relevant cases." Except it does. It is pretty much identical to what happened to Tweeden: In a scripted performance that includes a kiss, someone stuck their tongue in the mouth of the other without permission. You've avoided and evaded, hiding behind a claim that you need to hear whether or not I was OK with it afterward, refusing to explain why. And thus, your behaviour is dishonest. You have called my experience "hypothetical," denied the reality of the precision with which my experience matches that of Tweeden's, and run away from any attempt to have you define your reasoning. I wouldn't say we don't have anything to discuss. More accurately, you don't want to discuss it.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 262 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
NoNukes responds to me:
quote: Do you have any defense of your argument? Do you even have an argument?
quote: Franken does. Do we believe him? Does believing him necessarily mean that we don't believe the women? Can't they both be right? I'm in the identical situation to what happened to Franken, both in what happened to me and what I have done (neither of which were "hypothetical") and given that you can't seem to put forward an argument, your intellectual dishonesty is reaching epic levels. My conclusion is that you're running away.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 262 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Percy writes:
quote: Name one. Name one person in this thread that "doubts the women's stories," Percy. Does the term "strawman" mean anything to you?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3971 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 7.1
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Two from back in November:
Al Franken's Former Female Staffers Come to His Defense: 'He Treated Us With the Utmost Respect' 36 Women From Saturday Night Live Sign Letter of Support for Sen. Al Franken And from Jan. 7, 2018:
Major Democratic donor threatens to pull funding from senators who called for Franken’s resignation quote: More at source. Moose
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Taq Member Posts: 10299 Joined: Member Rating: 7.1
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Minnemooseus writes: Two from back in November:Al Franken's Former Female Staffers Come to His Defense: 'He Treated Us With the Utmost Respect' 36 Women From Saturday Night Live Sign Letter of Support for Sen. Al Franken
Not abusing all women does not excuse him from abusing some women. At the same time, there is a difference between an unapologetic misogynist and a dude that made a couple of serious errors in judgment. Franken should have gotten out ahead of this whole thing, made a serious apology, and even perhaps let the Senate ethics committee grill him in public so he could explain himself. Americans have always been willing to let people redeem themselves if they show heartfelt regret. What Americans will not accept is someone who abuses their power on a regular basis to support a ongoing corrupt system, and I don't see Franken being a part of something like that.
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Percy Member Posts: 22951 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
From today's New York Times: Catherine Deneuve and Others Denounce the #MeToo Movement. The public letter says in part:
Damn, it's in French: Nous dfendons une libert d’importuner, indispensable la libert sexuelle. Looking for the English translation. I want to quote from the whole letter, not just from the excerpts in the NYT article... Tried Google Translate, but it's too rough, still looking... Okay, here we go, found it at WorldCrunch: Full Translation Of French Anti-#MeToo Manifesto Signed By Catherine Deneuve. I use the New York Times excerpts where possible:
quote: She says some important things, like that women shouldn't be forced into the role of perpetual victim, and that the interplay between the sexes isn't possible without the freedom to bother. As Garrison Keillor said long before he was fired from Prairie Home Companion, "A world in which there is no sexual harassment at all, is a world in which there will not be any flirtation." But she also says that woman should tolerate some level of, well, there are no other words for it, sexual harassment. Is a crotch feel (DeNeuve's words: "a man who rubs himself against her in the subway") really to be tolerated? But I do see strength in the pragmatism of DeNeuve's view, less because I like it and more because, as much as I favor the #MeToo movement, I don't believe human nature will ever change. --Percy
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4597 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 9.7 |
What Americans will not accept is someone who abuses their power on a regular basis to support a ongoing corrupt system Well, except for admitted sexual predator Trump. Separate from the individual women who accused Trump there are the documented occasions when he barged into the dressing rooms at his beauty pageants. Apparently, somewhere around half of the voting Americans do accept abuse of power and systematic corruption in the Whitehouse.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
She says some important things, like that women shouldn't be forced into the role of perpetual victim Yeah, that is a truism, but is it important here? Are there a significant number of "metoo" voices that are doing this? If so are they getting airtime? In my opinion, this "important thing" is just more of the same misguided thought that underlies the rest of DeNeuve's statement. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2620 From: massachusetts US Joined: |
Percy, in Message 263, writes:
She says some important things, like that women shouldn't be forced into the role of perpetual victim... This is interesting when you consider her role in "Repulsion".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repulsion_(film) Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix a link that shouldn't have needed fixing (system couldn't handle a "_").- xongsmith, 5.7d
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Diomedes Member Posts: 998 From: Central Florida, USA Joined:
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But she also says that woman should tolerate some level of, well, there are no other words for it, sexual harassment. Is a crotch feel (DeNeuve's words: "a man who rubs himself against her in the subway") really to be tolerated? But I do see strength in the pragmatism of DeNeuve's view, less because I like it and more because, as much as I favor the #MeToo movement, I don't believe human nature will ever change. I think what she is alluding to is that Twitter may have turned this legitimate issue into somewhat of a sideshow. Everyone now jumping on the bandwagon and it runs the risk of appearing more like a witch hunt which devalues what I think is a serious problem. At a core level, I think what #MeToo is striving to do is draw attention to how women have had to be complacent to advances from men in positions of power. There is a fine line between being flirtatious versus being outright aggressive. But ultimately, in my mind, the core issue is the abuse of power. Whether it be in Hollywood or elsewhere, too often have men (and some women) used their elevated status, wealth and gravitas to coerce women into uncomfortable situations. And if they rebuff the advances, they can be blacklisted. Case in point was Mira Sorvino who turned away Weinstein only to be passed over for many roles. Despite being an Oscar winner.
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Taq Member Posts: 10299 Joined: Member Rating: 7.1
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Tanypteryx writes: Well, except for admitted sexual predator Trump. Separate from the individual women who accused Trump there are the documented occasions when he barged into the dressing rooms at his beauty pageants. Apparently, somewhere around half of the voting Americans do accept abuse of power and systematic corruption in the Whitehouse.
I strongly suspect that Trump supporters will claim that these events never happened.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3971 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 7.1 |
Links for the record here:
Garrison Keillor exposed Which links to the lengthy: Investigation: For some who lived in it, Keillor's world wasn't funny | MPR News Moose
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3971 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 7.1 |
Rep. Elizabeth Esty pressured to resign following reports of sexual harassment in her office
quote: More at source. Moose
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