Interaction of Christianity and Islam Prior to the 20th Century

The Jews had committed this heinous crime of ... rejecting his claim to be a rabbi? And they used this through the years as an excuse to persecute the Jews. And that flimsy cause was enough to justify it in their minds? And this is a "tolerant" religion? The Quran has BOTH very tolerant and viciously vengeful sayings in it. They can take their pick.All I've read so far. Skimmed a little farther but will have to come back to it. Noticed that you enjoy pretending that Muslim viciousness is typical of "religion." Oh well. What else is new.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Remember that virtually nobody could read, and much of what they learned about their religion was given to them by the Church. In order to consolidate land holdings and to fullfill what they foresaw as their God ordained purpose, the Church rallied the people when Islam began to rise in promenance. The motives were anything but Christ-like. Quite simply, the dominant European political/religious powerbase did not want any competition from the emerging Islamic powerbase. IMHO< anyway.

Heh. Yep, that's pretty much it. If you want my opinion on it (which you're gonna get whether you want it or not ), it likely stems more from questions of money and power, rather than religion. Although I admit that when you add religion into the mix, things get nasty all around - doesn't matter what religion it is. The Jewish clans in the Hejaz at the time were pretty powerful merchants, on average. There had even been a Jewish Empire in south Arabia (it was the Christian Ethiopians that wiped them out, not Moslems). Giving the Jews due credit - there were few converts from that faith to early Islam. They stood by their guns pretty consistently - to their detriment, unfortunately. Unlike, say, the Christians or pagans (or Zoroastrians or etc), who fairly readily converted when shown the benefits. Remember, however, that this is very early in the history of Islam. Much of later history (until the Ottomans) really IS fairly tolerant of all faiths - often for a price. Yep again. Just like the Bible. I'll admit that the Qu'ran is a bit more overt about it, especially in relation to Jews. Certainly not the viciousness of Christianity. You ought to read more of the history of your religion, Faith. Check out all the so-called heresies that the Christians brutally obliterated, the history of Jewish-Christian conflicts, the Crusades, the "kill them all, God will know his own" attitude, etc etc etc. Seems to me to be quite a normal facet of most major religions.

Kindly do not accuse me of not knowing the history of my religion. I have in fact answered what you say in that post many times. I think I've gone as far as I want to go on this thread as I see where you are taking it.

Its not that you don't know, maybe its that you choose to ignore...
He is right in this point.Over the course of history more heinous acts of violence and butchery have been committed in the name of religion then any other cause. Dont you go on about how pure christianity is. The put-down of the heresies (gnosticism, arianism ect. (sp?)), the spanish inquisition, the crusades, the list goes on. What else is true?Edited by Damouse, : Sp

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-I believe in God, I just call it Nature
-One man with an imaginary friend is insane. a Million men with an imaginary friend is a religion.
-People must often be reminded that the bible did not arrive as a fax from heaven; it was written by men.

Quetzal,Wow! This is the best writing I've ever read on this forum. I am thoroughly enjoying it and looking forward to the next installment. Thank you for all the hard writing that has gone into this.lfen

I added the bolds.That is absolutely false. What is the source of your willingness to tell such lies? More butchery OF religious people has occurred than was ever done BY any. Besides that, most of the wars, the conquests, the raping and pillaging, have had no religious motivation whatever.You seem to have no knowledge of the butcheries of millions upon millions over the millennia that had nothing whatever to do with religion, the most recent committed in the name of Communism and Nazism for instance, and Communism is notorious for its persecution and execution of Christians and other religious people. The "put down of the heresies" was a theological matter, verbal, utterly bloodless. What malicious confusion leads you to connect it to a discussion of violence? And speaking of being pure, their putting false teaching out of the church is in fact testimony to the attempt to keep Christian doctrine pure against every kind of falseness. What kind of muddleheaded nonsense are you putting out here?I am a Protestant and I consider the Inquisition to have been anti-Christian in spirit as it killed many Protestants. It was opposed to the very spirit of Christ. Even so it killed far fewer people than is insinuated by such broadbrush treatments as yours, some 3 to 5000 as I recall. The Turks killed how many Armenian Christians? Two million? The Godless Nazis killed how many Jews? The Godless Communists killed how many "enemies of the state?" Get some facts before you pass on these false rumors.

More butchery of religious ppl... Religious people (Pre-WWII)
Medival and dark-age justified their destruction by saying it was in the name of god. The crusades are the prime example for this. How many people have died in the name of god? The Church has been using whatever means neccesary to gain political and religious strength at every other turn since Constantine converted to keep the Empire together. The MURDER of the knights templar, the MURDER of Huss, and the persecution of paganism.The put down of the heresies was utterly bloodless... gee can you define blood? rofl! I should get some facts...
In fact, the SPANISH inquisition, the 3rd of four inquisitions, killed approx. 31 thousand people (-Will Durant). All of the atrocities to protect christianity from all of history easily add up to the wars that have occured in the past 200 years.

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-I believe in God, I just call it Nature
-One man with an imaginary friend is insane. a Million men with an imaginary friend is a religion.
-People must often be reminded that the bible did not arrive as a fax from heaven; it was written by men.
-Religion is the opiate of the masses

Follow the context. I was answering your ridiculous statement about the Gnostics and the Arians, which were bloodless theological disputes. As far as the Inquisition against heretics goes, as I said it was not Christian, it was ANTI-Christian, it persecuted Christians, and persecuting heretics is anti-Christian anyway.The Inquisition was evil, I agree, but not Christian either. In any case, 30,000 is still nothing compared to 6 million Jews killed by Nazis, 1.5 million Armenians killed by Turks, and something approaching 110 million killed by Communism: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.FIG1.GIFEdited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

it doesn't really matter what you think it was, or that you've dissafiliated yourself from them, but the fact is that the inquisitions were done, again, in the name of god. It was done by christians and in that sense was very christian.EDIT: Went to site you listed. Interesting site, though it takes a while to find Rummel's credentials. The site, however, supports his theory of history that governments kill people, and the numbers sound VERY extreme. In the same way that you listed 3-5 thousand and i listed 31 thousand, im really iffy about these numbers. Looks like hes trying to change them for his own benefit.Edited by Damouse, : re-read website

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-I believe in God, I just call it Nature
-One man with an imaginary friend is insane. a Million men with an imaginary friend is a religion.
-People must often be reminded that the bible did not arrive as a fax from heaven; it was written by men.
-Religion is the opiate of the masses

Whatever, Faith. This wasn't a discussion between you and I in the first place. I really couldn't care less whether you like what I write or not. If you're really not going to participate further, then I'd appreciate your forebearance in not cluttering up the thread.Thanks.

Incorrect grammar. It's "between you and me" - OBJECT is "me" not "I."If someone addresses me, I answer if I feel like it.

good point... really contributing to the argument there...

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-I believe in God, I just call it Nature
-One man with an imaginary friend is insane. a Million men with an imaginary friend is a religion.
-People must often be reminded that the bible did not arrive as a fax from heaven; it was written by men.
-Religion is the opiate of the masses

Ah, me. Best laugh I've had all week. Bye, Faith.

As the person who proposed this topic with the OP, I would like to say I think Quetzal is doing an excellent job in setting up this thread for the discussion concerning the interaction of Islam and Christianity, which has barely started. Such examples of thorough, high quality, postings are not all that common, which is why I am showing restraint by not interrupting him unnecessarily. Speaking for myself and those who agree, please withold the grammar lessons or start your own thread concerning proper English usage. I'm sure everyone here can contribute, if not in direct posts, then in providing counterexamples.Also, I'm sure most people following this thread would like for it to stay on topic, so if your comments do not relate to the relationship of Islam to Christianity, either by elaborating on the historic setup or direct events, please consider posting to a more appropriate thread or starting a new thread. Additionally, if your comments are within the proper bounds of the topic, I for one would appreciate sources.Thank you for your consideration.