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Author Topic:   Having it both ways (Chinese abortion policy & Pro-choice/life considerations)
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 59 (396621)
04-21-2007 10:48 AM


I heard an interesting thing the other day that, to me, seemed hypocritical. I was listening to a program that was speaking about how a certain nation, (I believe it was China), aborted 5 times as many female's than male's. Here in the States some people have expressed disdain over this. But who was complaining? Was it Pro-Life advocates? No, actually the disdain was coming from the Pro-Choice camp.
This is completely paradoxical to me for obvious reasons. How can anyone who is Pro-Choice speak out against the abortion of a fetus because it seems one sex is being targeted? What difference does it make to them when they do not consider a fetus to be a human with basic rights in the first place? The sex of a fetus, whether male or female, is most often viewed as superfluous information at best to someone that believes abortion is a viable option. So why the concern only when it seems that one sex is being targeted?
So I ask the reader: Is it wrong to abort more female's than males?
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added the "(Chinese abortion policy & Pro-choice/life considerations)" part to the topic title.

"God is like the sun. You can't look at it. But without it you can't look at anything else." -G.K. Chesterton

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by subbie, posted 04-21-2007 12:16 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 04-21-2007 12:26 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 7 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-21-2007 2:23 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 8 by crashfrog, posted 04-21-2007 2:30 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 34 by Rob, posted 04-29-2007 11:11 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 59 (397230)
04-25-2007 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by subbie
04-21-2007 12:16 PM


Re: It's not really that hard to understand.
Most of the criticism that I've heard about China and abortions is directed to the government's policy that requires women to get abortions under certain circumstances. The reasons for any thinking person to oppose this policy are clear.
Sorry I haven't responded sooner. I've been traveling alot this month.
But anyway... I'm going to address this point only because the rest of your post seemed like a bit of a tangent.
The issue with China forcing abortions to lessen the amount of children being born is always an issue that is concerning to pretty much all parties involved. Both Pro-Choice and Pro-Life is unified on this one aspect. Both parties seem to be in agreement that it is a moral injustice.
But this is getting away from my main premise, which is the humanity of it all-- or in this case, the inhumanity. How can some of us have it both? How can you in one instance say that a fetus is not a human being at all with no rights available to them, and yet, hypocritically cry foul ball because more female non-humans are being killed at a higher rate than male non-humans? That makes no sense whatsoever.
What difference does the sex make if a fetus is not even considered a person in the first place?
I read some of the other posts and many went on tangents that misses the focal point. I would like this to be addressed because this, as I suspected, forces proponents of abortion to face the humanity of their decision and drives a wedge in between two topics that many feel passionately about. Namely, abortion and women's rights.
Which takes primacy?

"God is like the sun. You can't look at it. But without it you can't look at anything else." -G.K. Chesterton

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 Message 3 by subbie, posted 04-21-2007 12:16 PM subbie has replied

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 59 (398990)
05-03-2007 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by macaroniandcheese
04-21-2007 2:23 PM


once again you're obfuscating reality just to bad-mouth people who disagree with you.
I'm not sure how I could have done that seeing as how I did not offer any of my own feelings on the matter.
the issue here is that the purpose of abortion in this country is to have the right to control the output of one's own uterus irrespective of the wishes or opinions of anyone else. the purpose of abortion in china has been to get rid of a "useless" daughter in order to be able to have a son.
What do you care though? According to the Pro-abortion movement, a fetus is a non-human whether that fetus is male or female.
this is because men are the only valued members of society, free to their choice in employment having the ability to provide for their parents. women are required to serve specific limited roles and are not viewed as bringing "honor" to their families.
Brenna, there is no doubt you are right when it comes to women's rights in China. But we aren't talking about women? We are just talking about inhuman blobs that just so happen to have two X chromosome's.
it is not wrong to seek to ensure that you have a child who will be able to care for you in your old age. it is wrong to perpetuate ideas that women have no value.
What exactly makes it wrong? Isn't that a matter of opinion that differs greatly from American culture to Chinese culture? I mean, afterall, the naturalist explanation for why morals formulate is due to cultural influence. The Chinese simply grew up differently than you. It would be a difficult thing to do than express their killing of more females than males as morally reprehensible, all the while, defending the act of killing itself.

"God is like the sun. You can't look at it. But without it you can't look at anything else." -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-21-2007 2:23 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by kongstad, posted 05-03-2007 5:52 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 59 (399203)
05-04-2007 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by kongstad
05-03-2007 5:52 PM


You are so close NJ. You are just wrong on one account. We ARE talking about women.
No, we are talking about a fetus, something the pro-abort community as a non-human.
I know that pro-lifers despise women, but just stop for a second and think.
Do female pro-lifers despise women too?
the bad thing is that women are forced to abort, not that they abort. Its not about the fetuses its about the women.
Quite a few people keep reverting back to the argument that it is wrong for the Chinese authority to force people to get an abortion. We are all in agreement that it is wrong to do. So lets focus on my topic.
I an asking if it is morally wrong to abort more female's than male's. If so, why? Being that proponents of abortion believe that a fetus is a non-human-- a collocation of well-formed molecules at most-- what difference does it make if the fetus is male or female?

"God is like the sun. You can't look at it. But without it you can't look at anything else." -G.K. Chesterton

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Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Taz, posted 05-04-2007 2:36 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 49 by subbie, posted 05-04-2007 3:43 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 58 by nator, posted 05-29-2007 10:52 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 59 (399387)
05-05-2007 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Taz
05-04-2007 2:36 PM


Conflating the issue
I don't think anyone here has made the argument that it is morally wrong to force women to abort more females than males.
Then what are we discussing since this question is what I focused my thread on?
The point of liberal's opposition to force abortion is that the state is controling the woman's choice here.
But that isn't the discussion. We are all in agreement that forcing people down and sticking foreign objects in a woman to destroy the life inside of her is absolutely squalid. That isn't what my thread is about. And I suspect that all the floundering I've seen thus far is because my question presents a conundrum for those taking a pro-abortion stance, which is why I'm having a hard time getting a straight up answer.
Notice how it's only you people that call us pro-abortion crowd while we try to describe ourselves as pro-choice?
Because that's what you are. The issue is abortion, not about the oh so unassuming, non-threatening word of "choice." Its about abortion. You are either pro or con. Everybody likes their ability of having a freewill. No one is in favor of becoming robots incapable of making choices. Since everyone is pro-choice in this regard, we should narrow the topic to what we are really talking about-- which is abortion. You are either Pro-abortion or anti-abortion. I think "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are somewhat misleading terms. I only use them at times because that's what every one identifies with. I use it so people know what I'm talking about. But the truth be told, I kind of have a problem with the terminologies.
Look, I don't like abortion. I think life begins at the point when the sperm meets the egg. I think the fetus should have every human rights there are. If you want to know why I'm a pro-choicer even though I believe these things, I'll explain again for the millionth time. But for now, rest assured that I am not, and neither is anyone else, trying to argue that it is more wrong to abort baby girls than baby boys. The issue whether the state should have control over its citizens' bodies.
I'm trying to get away from the typical argument that we have here on the subject. I thought that by forcing them to identify with one's sex, they would be more likely to see the humanity, or rather, the inhumanity of the whole procedure. The reason being is that the pro-choice/pro-abortion movement often can identify with women's rights--that women are just as available to the same rights as their male counterparts are. The problem occurs when the sex is identified in a fetus, which is something that most abortion proponents say is a non-human. But this confronts them with the possibility that an abortion is a serious aberration where people are taking the lives of other people, and where those who support it are becoming increasingly calloused to its full reality. Perhaps this will remove the blinders.

"God is like the sun. You can't look at it. But without it you can't look at anything else." -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Nuggin, posted 05-05-2007 11:31 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
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