Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 49 (9215 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: Candle3
Post Volume: Total: 920,121 Year: 443/6,935 Month: 443/275 Week: 160/159 Day: 0/23 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Dangers of Secularism
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3751 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 21 of 190 (208449)
05-15-2005 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
05-13-2005 7:25 PM


Freethinkers
quote:
Therefore, I conclude that secularism has its own special dangers, perhaps even worse than problems caused by religious cultures.
Any system that attempts to stifle freethought will cause problems, whether it is a religious system or a non-religious system.
I found this quote from Susan Jacoby, the author of Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism interesting. I'll have to see if my library has the book.
The secularist strain in American culture has been very strong since the beginning, but the nation's secular heritage is virtually unknown to people. A secular government was developed to protect the rights of religious minorities. Most Americans don't know that God is not mentioned in the Constitution. It was a coalition of religious Evangelicals and freethinkers or deists who joined together to get this ratified. And why did the Evangelicals want this then? Because they were a minority and they deeply feared government interference with religion.
So it stands that freethinkers would also want protection from religious interference with freethought should the religious or any religion become the majority.
In the book A History of the Jews by Paul Johnson, it states:
...a broad group of pious Jews in the tradition of Josiah, Ezekiel and Ezra. Many of them did not object to Greek rule in principle, any more than they had objected to the Persians, since they tended to accept Jeremiah's arguments that religion and piety flourished more when pagans had to conduct the corrupting business of goverment. ...provided they were left to practise their religion in peace.
Theocracy may have worked well in a tribal situation but didn't seem to work for large nations.
quote:
What happened to fill the vacuum of this lack of religious belief?
Communism
Fascism.
From what I can tell true communism isn't for or against religion. It is supposedly a system of equality. Religion can exist within a truly communist society. Some of the NT teachings lean in this direction.
IMO what we call communist societies are more socialist in application.
Oddly enough religion existed within fascism also (a system of government characterized by dictatorship, belligerent nationalism, racism, militarism, etc.)
None of these governmental systems are against religion. It is the human element that ultimately shapes the system. A theocracy could use any of these systems to form their government.
The religious are no less corruptible than the nonreligious. From the looks of history, each has had its day.
These types of "isms" are not my strong suit, so pardon me if my views are overly simplistic.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 05-13-2005 7:25 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by robinrohan, posted 05-15-2005 7:40 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 05-15-2005 7:58 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3751 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 36 of 190 (208500)
05-15-2005 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
05-15-2005 7:58 PM


Re: Freethinkers
quote:
Theoretically, so they say, but in actual fact, actual practice, religion is persecuted in Communist societies.
And religion was persecuted in America under democracy and freedom.
The point being that religion is not persecuted because the society is communist. The system doesn't determine who is persecuted, people do, and it doesn't matter which camp they are in.
IMO the countries you listed have not achieved a true state of communism as it is defined. I think their original intent was to achieve communism, but they have not succeeded. They achieved what I understand to be socialism.
IMO such a system only works on a small scale. I think some small Native American tribes functioned like communism.
The people in power dictate the rules within the system. So it doesn't matter what the system is, those in power create the rules.
IOW secularism, as I understand it, has state and government separate from religion, which is consistent with what the founding fathers intended. Separate doesn't mean persecute, so secularism doesn't necessarily lead to persecution any more than any other government or religious system in history.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 05-15-2005 7:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 05-15-2005 11:00 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3751 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 48 of 190 (208590)
05-16-2005 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
05-15-2005 11:00 PM


Re: Freethinkers
quote:
Religion as such or are you talking about sectarian conflicts or pseudoreligions?
Native Americans were forbidden to practice their form of religion. They were forbidden to speak their language.
Native spirituality was suppressed by the U.S. and Canadian governments. Spiritual leaders ran the risk of jail sentences of up to 30 years for simply practicing their rituals. This came to an end in the U.S. in 1978 when the Freedom of Religion Act was passed.
quote:
The separation was to benefit and encourage religion, specifically the Christian religion, not eliminate it.
Exactly.
Amendment 1
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...
Even though this is a democratic nation and the amendment speaks of religious freedom, religions other than Christianity weren't encouraged. It wasn't true religious freedom.
Did the democratic system persecute other religions? No, the people within the democratic system did. The democratic system has nothing to do with religion or lack there of. Now people within the democratic system have been working to assure that people are free to practice their religion of choice and people are just as free not to practice a religion.
Again it isn't the system that persecutes or oppresses, it is the people. Which I think brennakimi states clearer in Message 40.
Secularism doesn't necessarily lead to persecution any more than any other government, economic or religious system in history.
As I said before, the religious can persecute just as easily as the nonreligious.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 05-15-2005 11:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3751 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 49 of 190 (208598)
05-16-2005 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Alexander
05-16-2005 7:47 AM


Re: Freethinkers
quote:
As for religion, one would expect that a communist state would have to repress of even oppress religion, but Cuba is a good counterexample.
The communist state would not have to repress or oppress religion if the state chose that religion.
See Religious Communism
IMO religion can function within any of these systems if the leadership deems it is allowed.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Alexander, posted 05-16-2005 7:47 AM Alexander has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2025