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Author Topic:   The Dangers of Secularism
Phat
Member
Posts: 18650
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 136 of 190 (210063)
05-20-2005 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by robinrohan
05-20-2005 4:03 PM


Re: What is religion?
I think that the phrase secular ideology may be more appropriate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by robinrohan, posted 05-20-2005 4:03 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
Limbo
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 190 (210084)
05-20-2005 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Silent H
05-20-2005 8:45 AM


This is your brain on God
quote:
You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
Can too!
When it comes to the human brain, science and religion can go hand in hand. Take for instance the emerging field of neurotheology:
Nielsen's Psychology of Religion: The Hollow Curriculum by Robert Sollod
Page not found -
Neuroscience of religion - Wikipedia

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Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by robinrohan, posted 05-20-2005 8:20 PM Limbo has not replied
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 190 (210093)
05-20-2005 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Limbo
05-20-2005 7:24 PM


citations of websites
I'm not sure that putting up some URL's, in itself, is an appropriate post on this forum, unless somebody asks you for them.
But I will leave that up to the Admins.

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bob_gray
Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 243
From: Virginia
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 139 of 190 (210098)
05-20-2005 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Limbo
05-20-2005 7:24 PM


Re: This is your brain on God
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotheology writes:
Neurotheology, also known as biotheology, is a relatively new field of scientific study that analyzes the biological basis of spirituality. This deals with the neurological and evolutionary basis for subjective experiences traditionally categorized as spiritual.
Thanks for the interesting discussion up to this point. I am a little unclear about your URLs though. I'm not sure that this supports your position. If it does, perhaps you could clarify?

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 6074 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 140 of 190 (210160)
05-21-2005 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Limbo
05-20-2005 7:24 PM


Re: This is your brain on God
Can too! When it comes to the human brain, science and religion can go hand in hand
So you are stating that as far as the brain is concerned scientific methodology is no longer appropriate? Please explain why that is.
You might also explain how that is consistent with ID, which rejects religion in science. If you are claiming here that ID allows for this, you have just put a nail in the coffin as ID being able to be taught in schools, as it would now be creationism.
And I am still waiting for a credible explanation of how ID would be any less reductionistic?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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ProfessorR
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 190 (210171)
05-21-2005 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by robinrohan
05-20-2005 3:03 PM


Re: What is religion?
Robinrohan, I'd suggest you throw your dictionary in the garbage. Of course religion is much more than worshipinng gods or the supernatural. Isn't Buddhism a religion? Of course it is, although Buddhists believe neither in God nor in a supernatural. They view the universe as a constant flow of the "dharma," eternal unchanging particles (quarks, gluons, etc.?), which may combine and recombine, causing all the infinite variety of the manifestations of being. That's a very "naturalist" view, as far as I understand, and yet hundreds of millions of Buddhists worldwide pray, worship in temples, etc. They have their religious community, the hierarchy, religious authorities and sacred texts, like any religion. Confucianism is another example of a very materialistic, naturalist, atheist religion.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 150 by robinrohan, posted 05-22-2005 10:25 AM ProfessorR has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 190 (210187)
05-21-2005 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by ProfessorR
05-21-2005 8:32 AM


Re: What is religion?
Who or what are the Buddhists praying to?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 143 of 190 (210210)
05-21-2005 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by robinrohan
05-21-2005 10:43 AM


Re: What is religion?
In most cases it is far less an external object then an internal practice. It is not so much praying to something as internally contemplating an idea.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4932 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 144 of 190 (210224)
05-21-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by robinrohan
05-20-2005 4:03 PM


Re: What is religion?
1. Religious skepticism or indifference.
2. The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.
Secularism Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
Robin,
I was and am dimly recalling my impressions of Hoffer's True Believer. I do think that fervent Communist Party members were "true believers" and their belief and faith in communism had a "religious" quality to it. I guess I think of secularism as more like rational atheism rather than fervent communisim, or facism is all.
I'm fine with the distinctions you make. Your definition of religion applies to most religions but I'm not sure if Buddhism fits those criteria or not. I think not but I may not quite be getting how you are using them. Do you think Buddhism is a religion?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by robinrohan, posted 05-20-2005 4:03 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by robinrohan, posted 05-22-2005 10:17 AM lfen has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4932 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 145 of 190 (210227)
05-21-2005 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by robinrohan
05-21-2005 10:43 AM


Re: What is religion?
Robin,
I'd have to ask if you are asking about popular Buddhism or ... don't know what to call it, core? Buddhism. Popular Buddhists people pray for the same reasons anyone prays.
Here's another explanation:
Prayer should be part of our spiritual journey, transforming confusion into clarity and suffering into joy. However, some mistakenly believe that the Absolute is separate and/or different from us. Believing this, their prayers ask for favors, such as health, salvation, fame, victory or the winning lottery numbers. They use prayer in order to manipulate their God to work for their benefit. Wanting Him to play favorites, they beg to be blessed by Him at the expense of others. However, this attitude defeats the power of prayer. We believe that in order for prayer to be effective it must be devoid of any self-centeredness and calculation, relying strictly on great compassion. It should be done to strengthen and open our hearts, and to benefit all beings. Buddhist prayer has nothing to do with begging for personal worldly or heavenly gains.
Create a Website | Tripod Web Hosting
Middle Eastern religions were/are religions of states or tribes and are sectarian. "If we righteously obey our God, he will lead us to victory". Buddhism prays for all sentient beings to be saved. It's not factional or sectarian.
lfen

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Brian
Member (Idle past 5214 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 146 of 190 (210228)
05-21-2005 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by robinrohan
05-21-2005 10:43 AM


Re: What is religion?
In Pure Land Buddhism, the followers pray and worship Amitabha, who is a bodhisatvva that has his own 'heaven' or pure land. In this pure land he (and I think another 2 bodhisatvvas)will teach devoted beings how to gain Nirvana.
Apparently, if you know you are dying and say 'Amitabha' ten times, then you go to his Pure Land, called Sukhaviti.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 5214 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 147 of 190 (210229)
05-21-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by ProfessorR
05-21-2005 8:32 AM


Re: What is religion?
Of course it is, although Buddhists believe neither in God
But they do believe in many gods, however these gods are inferior to humans as it is only as a human that you can follow the dharma.
nor in a supernatural.
I would disagree.
Samsara sounds supernatural to me, as does the various realms of existence, the realm of hungry ghosts for example.
Brian.

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Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4932 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 148 of 190 (210246)
05-21-2005 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Brian
05-21-2005 1:21 PM


Re: What is religion?
Samsara sounds supernatural to me, as does the various realms of existence, the realm of hungry ghosts for example.
Brian,
I think you are speaking of nirvana? Samsara is meant as a discription of our ordinary experience. Nirvana is more supernatural in Hinduism than in Buddhism. Samsara refers to this world of birth and death, things coming into being and ending and the suffering and grief and dissatisfaction this entails.
One understanding of Nirvana is the state that the Buddha realized and the assertion is that it is can be realized in this life. There is also para nirvana, the beyond nirvana. These can be non ordinary states of consciousness so I don't think strictly speaking supernatural.
The different realms can be thought of as supernatural but for example Chogyam Trungpa explained them as metaphors for various human states. I think it's typical of Buddhism to not insist on literal interpretations. In the West we can speak metaphorically of demons, but fundamentalist insist that demons literally exist. You can find attitudes like this in Buddhism but I don't think you have this idea that those who disagree with you are going to suffer eternal damnation cause there is no concept of eternal damnation in Buddhism.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Brian, posted 05-21-2005 1:21 PM Brian has replied

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 190 (210371)
05-22-2005 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by lfen
05-21-2005 12:49 PM


Re: What is religion?
Buddhism is complicated because there is a popular version and an educated version. The educated version might be described as psychological therapy rather than a religion, although even in this version you have concepts of the Absolute and soul. But perhaps Absolute just means reality and soul just means mind. The popular version is most definitely a religion, I think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by lfen, posted 05-21-2005 12:49 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 190 (210373)
05-22-2005 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by ProfessorR
05-21-2005 8:32 AM


Re: What is religion?
In that case, ProfessorR, give me a definition of "religion."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by ProfessorR, posted 05-21-2005 8:32 AM ProfessorR has replied

Replies to this message:
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