The Dangers of Secularism

Are there still kibbutzim in Isreal? As I understood it the kibbutz was a true communist society.lfen

and they are more a commune within a country rather than a country, yes?it is easier for a commune imho, because you have a smaller group to work with, membership is voluntary (at least for the first generation) and so committed to the process, and you have external resources that don't require political interactions.I sometimes wonder how many communes are still extant in the US, for yes, that is more of a "pure" commune-ism.

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Commune, yes. I sort of think they might be roughly equivalent to a small town government? Seems about the same level. I don't know what happened to communes in the United States. There might be a few religious ones that have continued. I just don't know.lfen

some of the more radical mormon towns might fit such a structure, but it seems to me that they have dropped off the map.it seems to me that if christians wanted a christian society with christian teaching that this would be the path to go.

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

quote:

---

the point is that secularism is just as prone to evil as a religious culture.

---

By itself, a person's belief or lack of belief in a god isn't going to do any harm. No more harm than the belief that Pepsi is better than Coke.It's only when (for example) either secularism is mixed with Stalinism or faith is mixed with a literal interpretation of the Old Testament that there's a danger. So on the one hand, an atheist has the same capacity for evil as a believer. But alternatively, secularism has nothing to do with acts carried out by its followers because it isn't associated with any moral code, whereas Christianity is.

quote:

---

Theoretically, so they say, but in actual fact, actual practice, religion is persecuted in Communist societies.

---

And religion was persecuted in America under democracy and freedom.The point being that religion is not persecuted because the society is communist. The system doesn't determine who is persecuted, people do, and it doesn't matter which camp they are in.IMO the countries you listed have not achieved a true state of communism as it is defined. I think their original intent was to achieve communism, but they have not succeeded. They achieved what I understand to be socialism.IMO such a system only works on a small scale. I think some small Native American tribes functioned like communism.The people in power dictate the rules within the system. So it doesn't matter what the system is, those in power create the rules.IOW secularism, as I understand it, has state and government separate from religion, which is consistent with what the founding fathers intended. Separate doesn't mean persecute, so secularism doesn't necessarily lead to persecution any more than any other government or religious system in history.

---

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Yes, all the ones I named. It is only Marxist hardliners who insist they haven't "yet achieved" genuine Communism. The fact is that they are THE expression of Communism, the only kind that has ever made it into actual practice and many honest ex-Marxists or at least ex-hardliners have admitted this. Only head-in-the-sand denial maintains the fiction. Unfortunately it usually takes a massive reality check like experiencing it up close and personal in the murder of personal friends and the like for the ideologues to wake up. Totalitarianism, Tyranny and Murder IS Communism.

Religion as such or are you talking about sectarian conflicts or pseudoreligions? Communism explicitly persecutes religion, particularly Christians and Jews. The KGB sent officers to brutalize little old ladies in house churches, and Communist China imprisons pastors and ordinary Christians who evangelize. Christians in North Korea are subjected to incredible brutality in their prisons. So are others of course, other religions and "enemies of the state" but Christianity is specifically treated as an enemy of the state. They have achieved a bloody totalitarianism, which is what Communism always results in. Your view is the view of Marxist hardliners who hold to the Marxist ideology against all the evidence that it is a bankrupt theory that leads only to tyranny and brutality. The term Communism specifically refers to a system based on Marxism. If you want to talk about communes or even generic socialism you are talking about something else. Some communes work for a while but most don't last long. There are many different versions of "socialism" however. Not so. Some forms of government are better than others. In the West the idea of Rule by Law, the balance of powers and the like, is supposed to minimize the influence of individual people in power and it has worked ingeniously despite the fact that clever people know how to abuse it, but no system is perfect. That is a long long debate. The separation was to benefit and encourage religion, specifically the Christian religion, not eliminate it. Madison who was the strongest proponent of separation of church from state specificially argued that it was necessary for the preservation of uncorrupted religion and a healthy nation. Actually it turns out it does, but that too is a long discussion.

well not really since the pharohs were gods and the pope is all but god on earth to many. julius ceasar claimed to be divine as did napoleon (i believe) and hitler. there are tons of leaders like that. and some claim to be merely "selected by god". why? because organized religion has a tendency to turn people into sheep and if you invoke divinity, people will do anything you say.

you're mistaking communism for russia. it's not the same and russia was communist in name only. it was a socialist dictatorship. same with north korea. korea persecutes christians because christianity is a western religion and if they let western religion in, them might let western other things in (like capitalism) and they don't want that. same deal with china. communist countries have no government. they don't need one. what about cuba another socialist dictatorship? they don't persecute the bazillions of catholics there. you need to check what you say before you go of half cocked with an agenda. communism based on marxist philosophy is that first the proliteriate (working class) overthrows the property owners who enslave them and set up a socialist government for an interum period in order to set the economy in line until they have achieved a working society and then the government is dissolved when the people are all serving their purposes. the only problem with it is that people tend to be so power hungry that instead of governments dissolving, they become more restrictive. it no longer is communist and it's only socialist in the respect that is has a restrictive economy.it's economic theory not a system of religious war. take a class or two. maybe even read the communist manifesto or other works of marx. then when you know what you're talking about...*fucking typos*This message has been edited by brennakimi, 05-16-2005 04:12 AM

Er, Nazism was not securalist - have a look at Mein Kampf and see how many references to 'God' or 'Divine Will' you can find. As to Communism, you need to establish cause between secularism and the communist abuses.In a way, I agree with you, concentrating on Religious abuses is inaccurate - however, in my opinion, the real danger is Ideology of any kind. Anywhere Ideology replaces rational thought the outcome will be sub-optimal at best and harmful at worst.

Is everyone on this board a Marxist?? I never thought I'd be defending Faith, but she was basically on the right track in message #37 (but not so much #38).

---

'Most temperate in the pleasures of the body, his passion was for glory only, and in that he was insatiable.'

so therefor the theocracies that have resulted in "Totalitarianism, Tyranny and Murder IS Communism" such as not only muslim states like Iran, but the Christian ones of the inquisition?fascinating circular reasoning, faith.I think that you take your definition of communism from the experience of countries claiming to use communism rather than look at the reality.Then you use that experience to justify your opinion of communism.can you tell me now the teachings of christ are incompatable with communism? better tell the priests in south america.can you tell me how communism is really anything more than a system of economy and not really a government (the goevernment is, after all, supposed to dissolve in a fully established communist country).enjoy.

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

really? does one have to be a marxist to understand that there is a very real difference between the state that marx envisaged and the state that was realized in russia, or china, and that the difference is due to the totalitarian dictatorships that seized power under the name of communismin reality they are no different from other dictatorships in the abuse of power, so why is the abuse of power the fault of communism?

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

I wasn't being totally serious. But one should realize that Marx was dreaming and the path to that false dream will unerringly lead to poverty and political depredation.As for religion, one would expect that a communist state would have to repress of even oppress religion, but Cuba is a good counterexample. Can anyone elaborate on the state of the Catholic church in Cuba, I don't know too much about how it functions there.

---

'Most temperate in the pleasures of the body, his passion was for glory only, and in that he was insatiable.'