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Author Topic:   An amazing story
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 1 of 123 (275397)
01-03-2006 3:56 PM


Some of you may have read this before:
Oops! We ran into some problems. | Internet Infidels Discussion Board
But, I figured I would post a link for those who haven't. I read it last night and I have to say it was one of the most moving things I have ever read (and I am NOT easily moved).....
I would hope that parents read this and see what indoctrination can do to children.
EDIT (I will include a brief summary here): it is the story of a woman raised in a very fundamentalist church and how they are members of her family treated her when she de-converted. It also explains the effect on her marriage and health. It is very honestly written and I think it has a lot to offer both sides.
She very accurately describes the mindset of both sides and why they don't understand each other. It was very eye-opening.
This message has been edited by Mini_Ditka, 01-03-2006 04:07 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2 of 123 (275400)
01-03-2006 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
01-03-2006 3:56 PM


Please abstract the message in your own words instead of requiring us to read a whole article blind. Thank you.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 04:04 PM

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 Message 1 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 01-03-2006 3:56 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 3 of 123 (275403)
01-03-2006 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Faith
01-03-2006 4:00 PM


by Request
Sorry, Faith is correct and I should have provided a summary:
Basically it is the story of a woman raised in a very fundamentalist church and how they are members of her family treated her when she de-converted. It is very honestly written and I think it has a lot to offer both sides.
She very accurately describes the mindset of both sides and why they don't understand each other. It was very eye-opening.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4 of 123 (275436)
01-03-2006 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
01-03-2006 3:56 PM


First take
It's too long to read in one sitting. I'm up to the point where she's started reading the atheists and getting cracks in her belief. I'll probably finish it later, but I'm sure I can assume that she started raising questions her family couldn't answer and eventually lost her faith altogether, right? And they get very upset and, what, excommunicate her or something?
Just some observations:
Churches should be sure their youth are taught the worldly point of view as thoroughly as the gospel, and that all the usual questions are hashed out as part of their growth in the faith. This includes all the atheist arguments, knowledge of all the other religions, and of course thorough immersion in the ToE. If some fall away, well, nobody ever said everybody would be saved, and meanwhile it should be effective inoculation against the familiar shock encounter young naive evangelicals so often experience out in the world.
How sad to see her finding William James and Bertrand Russell convincing. I laughed at them when friends had me read them during the period I was becoming a believer. My friends were SO worried I might become one of those dreaded fundamentalists during that period of fervent searching. But everything they gave me to read just was NOT what I was looking for. I knew God was real and I wanted to know Him and all that stuff was just the vaporings of intellectual types, which I was good enough at myself and thoroughly sick of. I'd had a lifetime of that kind of thinking already and found it shallow and stupid now that God was a reality to me. But I read those two books she read, and Evelyn Underwood's "Mysticism" and Hans Jonas' "Gnosticism" and lots of similar anti-religious and quasi-religious stuff on my own besides what they pressed upon me. James and Underwood led me to Theresa of Avila, though, and that was the start of the path to Christ.
So I just think it's sad that evangelicals set up their children for this kind of fall by not exposing them to opposing views. I hope we're getting smarter. If she belongs to the Lord she'll eventually find her way back to Him.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 05:11 PM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 5 of 123 (275439)
01-03-2006 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
01-03-2006 4:06 PM


Re: by Request
It's very long, but I read until she had lost her faith somewhat. From my perspective, it shows a critical truth often overlooked by people. The Lord is very serious about faith. He gives us faith, provides experiences in response to faith, and while we are working out doubts, He is gracious, but once we come to know Him, He often doesn't respond to doubt no matter how much we will or want Him to.
There is a scripture in James about asking with nothing doubting but for the doubting person not to expect anything from the Lord. Now clearly, the Lord does at times answer us in our doubt, but imo, this story and the scripture indicates one can find themselves trying to get the Lord to answer based on desire and will, and be extremely disheartened with nothing happens.
I have had the Lord answer so clearly many, many times, and then tried to come back and ask for something I have doubt over, and get nothing. The nothing is a response, but we don't perceive it that way. The Lord expects us to believe what we already know as true. Sometimes we don't know what we know, and I actually think sometimes the sense of no response is really a delayed response and we will get it later, but regardless, God is both loving and yet absolutely true, and the truth aspect is something we should be concerned with at times.
God won't change His word or the truth to save us. It's going to be the way it is, and if we find ourselves on the wrong side of the truth, that's something to be concerned about. That's what the Bible refers to as the fear of the Lord.
For the woman involved, I would ask her to do some soul-searching about her own experiences, and consider that denying the truth of those experiences in favor of men's words could indeed result in alienating her mind from the presence of God that she wanted so much.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 6 of 123 (275443)
01-03-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
01-03-2006 5:10 PM


Re: First take
vaporings of intellectual types, which I was good enough at myself and thoroughly sick of. I'd had a lifetime of that kind of thinking already and found it shallow and stupid now that God was a reality to me.
I was surprised to, but some are more impressed with knowledge and intellectualism. I think you are right that people need to hear the intellectual responses early on, but kids can change quickly. I try to talk with my kids about ToE, but they already beleive in the Lord and I think they get bored hearing the other side and so it's hard to get them to take it all in.
If she belongs to the Lord she'll eventually find her way back to Him.
well-said
This message has been edited by randman, 01-03-2006 05:17 PM

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 123 (275448)
01-03-2006 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
01-03-2006 5:10 PM


Re: First take
This includes all the atheist arguments, knowledge of all the other religions, and of course thorough immersion in the ToE.
No offense, but if there were legitimate rebuttals to the arguments of atheists, and to the scientific case for evolution, nobody would hold those positions.
I appreciate your candor, and I'd be delighted to see churches adopt your views, but the result would be less believers, not more. The intellectual validity of atheism and the scientific validity of evolution have not ever been shown to be assailable except to those with a prior committment to belief, such as you had.

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 Message 10 by Faith, posted 01-03-2006 5:53 PM crashfrog has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 8 of 123 (275452)
01-03-2006 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
01-03-2006 5:25 PM


Re: First take
No offense, but if there were legitimate rebuttals to the arguments of atheists, and to the scientific case for evolution, nobody would hold those positions.
Yea, I mean the fact we hold to these beliefs is all the evidence you need to know we are right...yippee!

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 9 of 123 (275454)
01-03-2006 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by randman
01-03-2006 5:26 PM


Re: First take
Yea, I mean the fact we hold to these beliefs is all the evidence you need to know we are right...yippee!
Well, atheists have a vocal and observable committment to rationalism.
On the other hand, anti-intellectualism is a prominent and celebrated part of your Christianity. You yourself have provided links and quotes of Christians admonishing followers to have "childlike faith", in other words, to retreat from adult rationality.
Your side makes no secret that Christianity isn't expected to make sense to its followers; simply that it's to be believed.
So, I stand by my statements. If there were legitimate rebuttals to atheist positions, there wouldn't be many atheists.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 10 of 123 (275458)
01-03-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
01-03-2006 5:25 PM


Intellectual inoculation recommendation
It isn't so much accurate rebuttals I think the church needs to teach as simply awareness of the basic positions. Not everyone has the intellectual talents or interests required for arguing the issues, it's just that they shouldn't be in the position of hearing it all for the first time from unbelievers. That's deadly.
What most protects a believer is personal experience with Christ though. It is possible to be a genuine Christian and yet too much on the level of head knowledge, which may have been the case with this girl. It is hard to know. But experience is crucial. Personal experience of the Biblical "Taste and see that the Lord is good" will get you through all kinds of challenges. Another one that's been my motto from early on is "Gustato spiritu desipit omnis caro" which if I got it right is Latin for "A taste of the spirit makes insipid everything carnal." (Unfortunately, the carnal does have a way of reinsinuating itself into the life if you don't watch it, since the fallen nature dies hard, but the statement is true nevertheless.)
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 06:49 PM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 11 of 123 (275460)
01-03-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
01-03-2006 5:53 PM


Re: First take
Faith, I agree completely. Btw, that's one reason I like the charismatic emphasis on actual hands-on experience with the gifts of the Spirit.
But you cannot rely on the gifts as a substitute for a real, personal relationship with Jesus.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 12 of 123 (275463)
01-03-2006 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
01-03-2006 3:56 PM


it's sad to me, not moving
I really don't see this as some sort of dangers of indoctrination. By her own account, her experiences as a child with the Lord and His work are some of the best year's of her life.
I think there is something to be learned on the nature of groups of people, and how groups develop an Us versus Them perspective, something I see very strongly among evolutionists in fact, and the hysteria towards one of their own that published an ID paper is indicative of the harsher aspects on how groups can react to someone within the group that is believed to be disloyal.
But honestly, some aspects of the woman's account have me scratching my head. This, imo, is a very sad story. Maybe there is a lesson to not be overly strict with yourself on things like movies and moderate alcohol consumption and things like that, or you may wind up so removed from things in the world and so hard on your flesh that you break, and perhaps lose your relationship with the Lord and your faith.
I think also she misunderstands Paul, and of course, once you start viewing the Bible from an unbelieving perspective, it will appear horrible. It's not designed for the unbelieving mind, and in many ways, cannot properly be understood without faith. It's a spiritual book, meant to be understood guided directly by the Spirit of God, with reason implemented of course, but human reason alone without revelation from God, imo, is totally insufficient to even understand the written words. It's as if the scripture is written in code to test our hearts.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 13 of 123 (275466)
01-03-2006 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by randman
01-03-2006 6:03 PM


Not all experiences are equal
Yes, that was why I was attracted to the charismatic movement too. But there are hazards on every side and on that side there is the hazard of counterfeit experiences, that I personally saw too much of, and the kind of experience I'm talking about comes out of that relationship with Christ and the gifts aren't necessary to that.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 06:48 PM

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 14 of 123 (275467)
01-03-2006 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
01-03-2006 5:53 PM


Re: First take
Not everyone has the intellectual talents or interests required for arguing the issues, it's just that they shouldn't be in the position of hearing it all for the first time from unbelievers. That's deadly.
Why? Seems like Christian fundamentalists have absolutely no problem dismissing anything unbelievers have to say.
At any rate, do you really think it's possible for Christians to accurately portray the atheist arguments? I've seen how you people butcher evolution; I've got a few of your pamphlets sitting here on my desk.
The church's teachers aren't going to get it right, and so when the college-age believer hears the arguments, and they're a lot more compelling than they remember, they're going to say "huh, I wonder what my church was trying to hide, exactly?"
Look, you're just going to lose Christians to college. It's just going to happen, because a fair number of Christians entering college are Christian because they don't know any better; because that's the only religion they've ever really seen, the only way they know how to live.
An expansion of knowledge and opportunity, of education, is going to pull a lot of those people away. It's just going to happen. Exposing them to that knowledge earlier is just going to pull them away earlier.
It is possible to be a genuine Christian and yet too much on the level of head knowledge,
This is what I was talking about to Randman, about Christian anti-intellectualism. "Damn that uppity book-larnin!"

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 123 (275469)
01-03-2006 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by crashfrog
01-03-2006 6:21 PM


Intellectualized faith
This is what I was talking about to Randman, about Christian anti-intellectualism. "Damn that uppity book-larnin!"
Didn't mean to slight the book learning, which I consider very important, merely to say that it can masquerade for faith in the absence of saving personal experience.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 06:47 PM

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