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Author Topic:   Guilty feelings.
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 957 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 16 of 46 (462527)
04-04-2008 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Larni
04-04-2008 2:42 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
But if you mean physical in as much as anxiety is expressed in a physical reaction then I would again ask you to justify your response.

I can't believe you're even asking.

Several neurotransmitters are involved in the regulation of fears and anxieties. These include GABA, Dopamine, Serotonin, Acetylcholine and Norepinephrine3.

• GABA

Gamma Aminobutyric acid. Generally considered an inhibitory neurotransmitter that is widely distributed in the brain 6. GABA is produced from glutamate and its effects are not well characterized.

• Dopamine

Dopamine produces behavioral quieting and there are multiple receptors in the brain. Dopamine is thought to have a role in Cognitive Dysfunction 7 and in Cushings disease in dogs.

• Serotonin

Produced in the brain from tryptophan. Multiple receptor subtypes in the brain. Thought to play a role in sleep, pain aggression, sexual behavior, anxiety, thermoregulation, food intake and social attachment.

• Acetylcholine

Most widely distributed neurotransmitter in the brain and body. Produced from choline and inactivated by acetylcholinesterase. Responsible for numerous side effects with medications.

• Norepinephrine

Precursor of epinephrine and also can act centrally. In behaviorally stimulating and increases arousal via activation of the reticular activating system.

http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00311.htm

There have been tremendous advances in our knowledge of the neurobiological basis of human anxiety and fear. This review seeks to highlight how specific neuronal circuits, neural mechanisms, and neuromodulators play a critical role in anxiety and fear states. It focuses on several brain structures, including the amygdala, locus coeruleus, hippocampus, and various cortical regions and the functional interactions among brain noradrenergic (NE), corticotropin releasing hormone (CRH), and the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis (HPA). Particular attention is directed toward results that can lead to a better understanding of the constellation of the symptoms associated with two of the more severe anxiety disorders, panic disorder and posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), the persistence of traumatic memories, and the effects of stress, particularly early life adverse experiences, on brain function and clinical outcome.

Review : The Neurobiological Basis of Anxiety and Fear: Circuits, Mechanisms, and Neurochemical Interactions
The Neuroscientist, Vol. 4, No. 1, 35-44 (1998)

What else could anxiety (or any emotion, for that matter) possibly be?


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 Message 14 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 2:42 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 3:14 PM molbiogirl has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 17 of 46 (462528)
04-04-2008 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by molbiogirl
04-04-2008 3:02 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
You misunderstand.

I know that anxiety is a physical reaction followed by cognition.

Guilt however is the issue here.

Again can you substantiate that guilt is as physical reation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 3:02 PM molbiogirl has responded

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 Message 18 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 3:40 PM Larni has responded

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 957 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 18 of 46 (462531)
04-04-2008 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Larni
04-04-2008 3:14 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
The insula has been implicated in the generation of affective states in response to emotive stimuli. Studies have also highlighted the role of the insula during recall of internally generated emotion [Reiman et al 1997] and during the experience of guilt [Shin et al 2000], a complex emotion that, like the experience of shame, may involve self-directed disgust. There is therefore accumulating evidence for the role of the insula in mediating behavior to aversive, including disgust-related, stimuli.

The ventrolateral prefrontal cortex can be defined as lateral and rostral regions of Brodmann area 47 and part of Brodmann area 45 and lies lateral to the orbitofrontal cortex on the ventral surface of the frontal lobes [Ongur and Price 2000]. Human functional neuroimaging studies have demonstrated increased blood flow and activation within this region during a variety of tasks, including the induction of sad mood [Pardo et al 1993] and guilt [Shin et al 2000], during the recall of personal memories [Fink et al 1996] and emotional material [Reiman et al 1997], and in response to facial expressions displaying different negative emotions [Sprengelmeyer et al 1996], particularly when specific tasks are performed in response to the expressions [Lange et al 2003]. The right temporofrontal junction and related right-sided ventrolateral prefrontal cortex have also been associated with autobiographical memory retrieval [Markowitsch 1997].

Mary L. Phillipsa, Wayne C. Drevetsb, Scott L. Rauchc and Richard Laned, Neurobiology of emotion perception I: the neural basis of normal emotion perceptionnext term, Biological Psychiatry, Volume 54, Issue 5, 1 September 2003, Pages 504-514

Shin et al 2000. Activation of anterior paralimbic structures during guilt-related script-driven imagery. Biol Psychiatry 48 (2000), pp. 43–50.

Recent neuroimaging studies have reported the neural substrate of moral judgment (Greene et al., 2001, Moll et al., 2002a and Moll et al., 2002b). However, few reports are available on specific moral or social emotions (Berthoz et al., 2002 and Shin et al., 2000).

Impairment of possessing the mental states of these moral emotions could lead to amoral, inappropriate behaviors observed in neurological and psychiatric disorders such as brain injuries (Anderson et al., 1999 and Beer et al., 2003), frontotemporal dementia (Miller et al., 2003 and Snowden et al., 2002), autism (Capps et al., 1992, Frith, 2001 and Hillier and Allinson, 2002), and antisocial personality (Brower and Price, 2001 and Moll et al., 2003). Studying the neural substrates of judgments of moral emotions should add to the understanding of the neural basis of amoral behaviors observed in neurological and psychiatric disorders.

A previous positron emission tomography (PET) study using a guilt-related script reported a slightly different activation pattern in anterior paralimbic regions during the experience of guilt (Shin et al., 2000).

Both guilt and embarrassment conditions commonly activated the medial prefrontal cortex (MPFC), left posterior superior temporal sulcus (STS), and visual cortex. Compared to guilt condition, embarrassment condition produced greater activation in the right temporal cortex (anterior), bilateral hippocampus, and visual cortex. Most of these regions have been implicated in the neural substrate of social cognition or Theory of Mind (ToM). Our results support the idea that both are self-conscious emotions, which are social emotions requiring the ability to represent the mental states of others. At the same time, our functional fMRI data are in favor of the notion that evaluative process of embarrassment might be a more complex process than that of guilt.

Hidehiko Takahashia, Noriaki Yahatac, Michihiko Koedad, Tetsuya Matsudae, Kunihiko Asaib and Yoshiro Okubo, Brain activation associated with evaluative processes of guilt and embarrassment: an fMRI study, NeuroImage, Volume 23, Issue 3, November 2004, Pages 967-974

Edited by molbiogirl, : another paper


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 Message 17 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 3:14 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 4:35 PM molbiogirl has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 19 of 46 (462532)
04-04-2008 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by molbiogirl
04-04-2008 3:40 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
I see this issue here:

You are of course correct that pretty much any negative emotion is going to involve the paralimbic system. But then to be fair any cognition or emotion is going to have to involve the brain: without the brain there is nothing.

My point about the physical reaction vs a cognitive reation is that (given that all cognition requires the brain- a physical entity) cognition is a mental process (occuring of course in the brain - a physical structure) where as anxiety is a psysical process (hormonal in this case).

I guess I could be charged with pedantry here but I think that cognitive and physical are different.

By the way, can I call you when I have my next essay? You ninja lit rev skills are strong!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 3:40 PM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 957 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 20 of 46 (462539)
04-04-2008 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Larni
04-04-2008 4:35 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
My point about the physical reaction vs a cognitive reation is that (given that all cognition requires the brain- a physical entity) cognition is a mental process (occuring of course in the brain - a physical structure) where as anxiety is a psysical process (hormonal in this case).

Larni, the structures of the brain don't just light up "all by themselves".

Neurochemistry is responsible for all emotions, including guilt.

And were I willing to dedicate another 1/2 hour to poking around scholar.google, I could tell you exactly which hormones are responsible for guilt.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 4:35 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 7:56 PM molbiogirl has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 21 of 46 (462544)
04-04-2008 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by molbiogirl
04-04-2008 7:39 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
molbiogirl writes:

Larni, the structures of the brain don't just light up "all by themselves".

I know this.

Cognition cannot take place without a brain in which it can take place in.

As this is true for all thought we can cancel this physical aspect out.

Compare thinking of cows with thinking anxious thoughts:

With thinking of cows there is no physiological reaction beyond that which takes place in the brain for thought to occur.

Thinking of having a fight provokes a visceral reaction mediated by adrenaline.

I'm sorry if spending yet another half hour doing research is a pain for you.

I meant what I said as compliment. I'm sorry it appears not to have been taken as such.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 7:39 PM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 957 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 22 of 46 (462548)
04-04-2008 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Larni
04-04-2008 7:56 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
No offense taken, Larni.

I'm still confused, tho.

You said "whereas" anxiet/guilt is hormonal. Cognition is too.

Neurotransmitters are hormone/peptide/amino acid/monoamine:

wiki writes:

* Around 10 "small-molecule neurotransmitters" are known:
o acetylcholine (Ach)
o monoamines (epinephrine (E), norepinephrine (NE), dopamine (DA), serotonin (5-HT) and melatonin)
o 3 or 4 amino acids, depending on exact definition used: (primarily glutamic acid, gamma aminobutyric acid (GABA), aspartic acid & glycine)
o Purines, (Adenosine, ATP, GTP and their derivatives)
o Fatty acids are also receiving attention as the potential endogenous cannabinoid.[citation needed]
* Over 50 neuroactive peptides (vasopressin, somatostatin, neurotensin, etc.) have been found, among them hormones such as Luteinizing hormone (LH) or insulin that have specific local actions in addition to their long-range signalling properties.
* Histamine
* Single ions, such as synaptically-released zinc, are also considered neurotransmitters by some.[citation needed]
* Gaseous, including: Nitrogen monoxide (NO) and Carbon monoxide (CO)

I guess I still don't know what distinction you are drawing.

The only difference between guilt and cognition is the chemical used to signal the appropriate part of the brain.

Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

Edited by molbiogirl, : sp


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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 957 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 23 of 46 (462552)
04-04-2008 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Larni
04-04-2008 7:56 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
Do you mean something like this?

Nervousness, blinking eyes, sweating, heavier breathing, higher heart rate, shaking, voice breaks when talking, cannot sit still, hands tremble, lips quiver

Feeling nauseous, tired and unable to get on with the day.

Sweating, heavier breathing, perhaps blushing.

These are self reported "guilt symptoms" from here:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071125134847AAPCS6T&show=7


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Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Larni, posted 04-05-2008 5:52 AM molbiogirl has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 24 of 46 (462565)
04-05-2008 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by molbiogirl
04-04-2008 9:57 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
Thats exactly what I mean.

These however are physiological reactions that are associated with anxiety.

Guilt is different.

When you feels guilt does: Nervousness, blinking eyes, sweating, heavier breathing, higher heart rate, shaking, voice breaks when talking, cannot sit still, hands tremble, lips quiver......Feeling nauseous, tired and unable to get on with the day........Sweating, heavier breathing, perhaps blushing......happen to you?


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Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 957 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 25 of 46 (462587)
04-05-2008 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Larni
04-05-2008 5:52 AM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
I get queasy, yes. But that's not important. One person's experience is right next to useless.

There are a bunch of papers in the literature that report similar findings, however.

Guilt is very much like anxiety/embarrassment/shame. All share "physical" symptoms.

ABE:

Just to clarify, the physical "symptoms" of guilt are reported in the literature. As are those for anxiety/embarrassment/shame. There doesn't seem to be any question that guilt manifests itself "physically".

This can lead to feelings of guilt and shame. The psychological distress engendered by these feelings may be expiated through physical pain or suffering [64, 65]. The location of the pain in the abdomen, pelvis, or genitourinary area is logical to the psyche because this area represents the "bad" or offending part of the body that is to be punished.

http://annals.highwire.org/cgi/content/full/123/10/782

... weakness in the right arm and leg, spasmodic eye blinking, facial tics, and a constant state of drowsiness ...

A dysfunction at the level of the serotonergic and noradrenergic neurons can thus affect both the ascending and descending pathways resulting in the psychological and somatic symptoms of depression but also in physical painful symptoms.

Feelings of guilt may be related to projections to the limbic area. Psychomotor retardation or agitation may be linked to problems in the various motor projections, while vegetative symptoms such as changes in appetite or weight, lack of pleasure and sleep abnormalities may relate to dysfunction of innervation of the hypothalamus and the sleep centres.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109629662/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

This paper specifically mentions serotonergic and noradrenergic pathways as those responsible.

The Maier subscale isolates core emotional symptoms of depression (depressed mood, guilt, retardation, agitation, anxiety), while the HAMD17 total score assesses both psychological and physical symptoms.

Onset of action for duloxetine 60 mg once daily: double-blind, placebo-controlled studies, Journal of Psychiatric Research, Volume 39, Issue 2, March 2005, Pages 161-172

The classic symptoms of depression found in the DSM-IV criteria--such as depressed mood, feelings of worthlessness or guilt, inability to concentrate, anxiety or irritability--are generally familiar to practitioners. Perhaps less familiar are the physical symptoms, which can include aches and pains (especially musculoskeletal pain), headache, gastrointestinal disturbance, chest tightness, fatigue, weakness and alterations in appetite and weight.

It is now known that, in addition to sending projections throughout the brain, serotonin and norepinephrine cell bodies also send neuronal projections down the spinal cord. These neurons act as regulators, balancing the need to respond to sensations from inside and outside the body. Descending pathways normally suppress routine sensory input, but malfunctions can lead to sensations escaping up the spinal cord to the brain, where they are misinterpreted as pain. Because serotonin and norepinephrine modify the effects of pain mediators such as gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) and substance P, decreased levels of either of these monoamine neurotransmitters may cause increased sensitivity to pain.

Role of Physical Symptoms in Diagnosis of Depression in the Elderly, Geriatrics and Aging, Volume 5, Number 8, October 2002, Pages 18-21.

Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.


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 Message 24 by Larni, posted 04-05-2008 5:52 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 26 of 46 (462628)
04-06-2008 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by molbiogirl
04-05-2008 12:30 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
http://annals.highwire.org/cgi/content/full/123/10/782

I could find nothing in this refering to guilt having physiological symptoms. Did you even read it?

molbiogirl writes:

Just to clarify, the physical "symptoms" of guilt are reported in the literature. As are those for anxiety/embarrassment/shame.

Anxiety and shame are not guilt.

Tangeny, J.P. (1996)CONCEPTUAL AND METHODOLOGICAL ISSUES IN THE ASSESSMENT OF SHAME AND GUILT. Behav. Res. Ther. Vol. 34, No. 9, pp. 741-755

So far you have shown only the psysiological symptoms anxiety.

molbiogirl writes:

Feelings of guilt may be related to projections to the limbic area.

Yes. Again I say: I KNOW THIS.

Forget the brain. Every act of cognition has a correlates within the brain. This is a given.

Guilt does not have the same resultant physilogical reactions as anxiety; guilt does not trigger facial distortion as does disgust.

molbiogirl writes:

The Maier subscale isolates core emotional symptoms of depression (depressed mood, guilt, retardation, agitation, anxiety), while the HAMD17 total score assesses both psychological and physical symptoms.

GUILT IS NOT DEPRESSION!

molbiogirl writes:

Role of Physical Symptoms in Diagnosis of Depression in the Elderly, Geriatrics and Aging, Volume 5, Number 8, October 2002, Pages 18-21.

My bold.

Exactly what physical symptoms do you think they mean when they refer to depression here? Cerebral blood flow? Or motor retardation (for example)?

Anyway GUILT IS NOT DEPRESSION!

Symptoms of depression were expected to correlate positively with shame, but not with guilt.

Webb, M et al (2007) Shame, guilt, symptoms of depression, and reported history of psychological maltreatment. Child Abuse & Neglect Volume 31, Issues 11-12, November-December 2007, Pages 1143-1153


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 Message 25 by molbiogirl, posted 04-05-2008 12:30 PM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 957 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 27 of 46 (462644)
04-06-2008 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Larni
04-06-2008 8:21 AM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
I could find nothing in this refering to guilt having physiological symptoms. Did you even read it?

It's in the quote, Larni.

This can lead to feelings of guilt and shame. The psychological distress engendered by these feelings may be expiated through physical pain or suffering [64, 65]. The location of the pain in the abdomen, pelvis, or genitourinary area is logical to the psyche because this area represents the "bad" or offending part of the body that is to be punished.

Larni writes:

Anxiety and shame are not guilt.

I didn't say they were. I said the symptoms for all 4 (anxiety/shame/embarrassment/guilt) are alike.

So far you have shown only the psysiological symptoms anxiety.

No. The above quote show that guilt and shame have physiological symptoms.

Granted guilt is not distinguished from shame.

GUILT IS NOT DEPRESSION!

I didn't say that is was. Guilt is a part of depression.

In my previous post, guilt is not separated from the rest of the feelings associated with depression, but I thought it important to include that study as it pinpoints the neurotransmitters that produce the pain.

Guilt isn't often studied by neurobiologists. As Hidehiko noted in the quote I posted earlier:

However, few reports are available on specific moral or social emotions (Berthoz et al., 2002 and Shin et al., 2000).

Larni writes:

Feelings of guilt may be related to projections to the limbic area.

Yes. Again I say: I KNOW THIS.

I didn't write that. Stahl et al did.

And you ignored the rest of the quote.

Psychomotor retardation or agitation may be linked to problems in the various motor projections, while vegetative symptoms such as changes in appetite or weight, lack of pleasure and sleep abnormalities may relate to dysfunction of innervation of the hypothalamus and the sleep centres.

Larni writes:

Symptoms of depression were expected to correlate positively with shame, but not with guilt.

Good find!

But, unfortunately, those findings are not consistent with others in the literature.

In summary, Wright et al. are to be applauded for their empirical approach to understanding the roles of shame, guilt, and sex differences in depression and narcissism. However, the lack of construct validity for the ASGS guilt scale raises serious doubts regarding some of their conclusions. In contrast to those conclusions, other studies indicate that guilt may not be any less involved in the formation of depression than shame, and that guilt as well as shame may be more common in women than men.

Wright, F., O'Leary, J., Balkin, J., Shame, Guilt, Narcissism, and Depression: Correlates and Sex Differences, Psychoanal. Psychol., 6:217-230.

In conclusion, we have shown profound dysregulation of IL-6 secretion in patients with diagnosis of Major Depressive Disorder ... Correlations between daily mean log-transformed plasma IL-6 levels and VAS scores for concentration (A), guilt (B), sadness (C), self-esteem (D), suicidal thoughts (E), and tiredness (F) in five MDD patients and matched controls. Correlations of IL-6 with guilt, self-esteem, and suicidal thoughts remained significant after Bonferroni correction.

Alesci, Salvatore, Major Depression Is Associated with Significant Diurnal Elevations in Plasma Interleukin-6 Levels, a Shift of Its Circadian Rhythm, and Loss of Physiological Complexity in Its Secretion: Clinical Implications. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism. 90(5):2522-2530, May 2005.

Please note that guilt was measured separately from the other emotions.

The symptom “feelings of guilt” is a central feature of major depression ... Recent advances in the psychometric measurement of guilt have led to the development of several new validated measures of guilt. In the current study, we have applied these new measures to address the following unanswered questions: (1) Do subjects with depression experience any more guilt than matched comparison subjects with a chronic medical illness or healthy controls? (2) What is the relationship between the severity of depression and the degree of guilt expressed? (3) Is depression associated with state-guilt, trait-guilt or both? ... The current data support the notion that feelings of guilt are both an enduring and fluctuating feature of major depression.

Kayhan Ghatavi et al, Defining guilt in depression:next term a comparison of subjects with major depression, chronic medical illness and healthy controls, Journal of Affective Disorders, Volume 68, Issues 2-3, April 2002, Pages 307-315.

Now. About the physiological symptoms of guilt.

The largest amount of physiological symptoms is reported for fear and the smallest amount for guilt and disgust.

Facets of Emotion, Klaus R. Scherer.

Please note that although the physiological symptoms of guilt are less prominent than those of fear, they do exist!


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 Message 26 by Larni, posted 04-06-2008 8:21 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Larni, posted 04-06-2008 3:33 PM molbiogirl has responded

  
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 28 of 46 (462648)
04-06-2008 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Larni
04-04-2008 2:45 PM


However, isn't this a reaction to a previous expression of guilt?

Yes. Why do you think that matters?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 2:45 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 29 of 46 (462649)
04-06-2008 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by molbiogirl
04-06-2008 2:16 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
molbiogirl writes:

This can lead to feelings of guilt and shame. The psychological distress engendered by these feelings may be expiated through physical pain or suffering [64, 65]. The location of the pain in the abdomen, pelvis, or genitourinary area is logical to the psyche because this area represents the "bad" or offending part of the body that is to be punished.

You honestly think these are symptoms of guilt? You don't think this is somatization?

molbiogirl writes:

Just to clarify, the physical "symptoms" of guilt are reported in the literature.

Yet you are yet to present them.

molbiogirl writes:

I thought it important to include that study as it pinpoints the neurotransmitters that produce the pain.

The function of a neurotransmitter is not a symptom.

That's like saying a symptom of having a cold is a virus.

molbiogirl writes:

Guilt is a part of depression

But you would agree that you can experience guilt sans depression and vis versa?

molbiogirl writes:

I didn't write that. Stahl et al did.

I don't understand. Why is this disctinction relevent?

molbiogirl writes:

Psychomotor retardation or agitation may be linked to problems in the various motor projections, while vegetative symptoms such as changes in appetite or weight, lack of pleasure and sleep abnormalities may relate to dysfunction of innervation of the hypothalamus and the sleep centres.

Again with the depression. Irrelevent.

Wright, F., O'Leary, J., Balkin, J., Shame, Guilt, Narcissism, and Depression: Correlates and Sex Differences, Psychoanal. Psychol., 6:217-230.

Now your talking! 19 year old psychoanalytic 'research'.

molbiogirl writes:

In conclusion, we have shown profound dysregulation of IL-6 secretion in patients with diagnosis of Major Depressive Disorder ... Correlations between daily mean log-transformed plasma IL-6 levels and VAS scores for concentration (A), guilt (B), sadness (C), self-esteem (D), suicidal thoughts (E), and tiredness (F) in five MDD patients and matched controls. Correlations of IL-6 with guilt, self-esteem, and suicidal thoughts remained significant after Bonferroni correction.

Why do you keep harping on about depression?

When you said cognitive is physical I assume you meant that guilt has physical symptoms.

molbiogirl writes:

Please note that although the physiological symptoms of guilt are less prominent than those of fear, they do exist!

You have still not presented them.


This message is a reply to:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 30 of 46 (462650)
04-06-2008 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Dr Jack
04-06-2008 3:10 PM


Mr Jack writes:

Yes. Why do you think that matters?

Good point: I suppose it does tell us that a) guilt is aversive and b) by avoiding guilt we avoid the aversive state.

So what makes guilt so aversive?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Dr Jack, posted 04-06-2008 3:10 PM Dr Jack has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Dr Jack, posted 04-06-2008 4:19 PM Larni has not yet responded

  
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