The Clergy Project

iano, I am only using what you said. You have said that to know a Christian one must be a Christian.Did you or did you not say that?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It is all quite simple, really.Liberal christians are all christians who do not fit a fundamentalist christian's definition of fundamentalist christian. All christians who are not fundamentalist christians are not true christians. And all of those who are not true christians are incapable of judging who is actually a christian. Thus it follows that the only christians are right-wing fundamentalist christians, and all others are mere pretenders, counterfits and hypocrites all.I really should think the logic would be inescapable by now.This message has been edited by TimChase, 12-06-2005 04:17 PM

The only inescapable logic I can find is that other that from what a person claims, there is not way a christian can detect if another person is christian. Forget the analogies, if you actually knew of a way, you would state it. I agree, it is indeed quite simple.

The trick is to go to war with other Christians as demonstrated throughout history up to WW2, or Croatia/Serbia if you want to be more current. If you win, you`re a real Christian as the other Christians were Christians, but not OUR Christians. If you lose, you did something wrong to offend God as we know He stands behind true Christians.So you strive to be a 'real' Christian in the future.QED.

I did. That is the only way one could know if someone else was a Christian. It doesn't follow however that being a Christian means necessarily that one will be able to tell if another is a Christian or not. For example, a newly born Christian is unlikely to be able to tell the difference between a person who has the holy spirit and a person who exposits doctrine. Both will be telling him the same thing but he won't yet be able to discern the difference. There could be all manner of reasons why a Christian can't tell if another is - but it remains the only way that it is possible to know if someone is. Do you still hold to this view?

If a person is truly a Christian simply because they claim to be one then your logic would be correct. But there is no way to demonstrate that a person claiming to be a Christian is a Christian unless one adheres to a man-made defintion.But if Christian is a word to describe the position of one before God - as defined in HIS word - then it's what God views the person to be that mattersBeing unable to be sure who is or isn't a Christian (for want of a way of objectively knowing it) might mean nothing objective can be said about them (no polls of Christian views possible for example). But so what? There are plenty of things we don't know and are happy to say we don't know and leave it at thatBetter to decide that one cannot know rather than create useless data and decide that that says something objective The analogy was trying to demonstrate that it may be possible that a person cannot know everything. That there are areas to which they are unable to gain insight. A person without a musical ear cannot tune a guitar by ear. No sweat. If someone is unable to know who is or isn't a Christian, what is the big deal. Why insist that it must be possible to know something you are unable to know?

Sure. If someone claims to be a Christian, then He is a Christian.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Hello jar,Now it seems as through we have come full circle back to he OP. Now that we cannot distinguish between one christian and another, what does this mean for the christians that deny a literalist interpertation of the bible.My interpertation is that those 10,000 clergy are leading the way for christians beginning to realize that liberal interpertation is not valid. This is progress. With luck and nuturing it might spread.

And claim to be the victim when others object ... goal (1) spread the gospel, and when that fails, goal (2) play the martyr card.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

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RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This is special to christianity???? Seems to me people who talk about seeing "auras" and the like are not christians ...

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

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RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

Because some people like making sweeping statements like "well if they don't believe in a literal creation, they arn't cristian!"isn't what god thinks and what man thinks two different things? as far as i can tell people have been pointing out that God has said what he views as a christian, which is a person who professes a belief in christ and follows what rules have been layed down by jesus.
But you seem to contend with that for some reason saying theres some obscure spiritual quality that you will not explain.then there is the fact that you keep dismissing that people define a christian as a person saying they are a christian, but as far as i can tell this is the only earthly way we can tell a christian from a non-christianthis all seems like an enormous waste of time if you keep redefining things

I've heard of 'you are what you eat' but 'you are what you claim you are' is a new one for me. If I claimed to be a surgeon, does that make me a surgeon - or are the criteria I must fulfill in order to really be a surgeon. Assuming you think that claiming surgeon status to be insufficient, could you draw out the distinction as to how a person can be something simply by claiming to be it and how the other can't but needs to fulfill certain criteria.

I'm not sure what you mean by a 'literal creation' but if anybody says you are not a Christian because you don't believe in a 6 day creation or a young earth then I would ask them to make the biblical case for it. That is non-belief in that = not a Christian. Watch them squirm. What God thinks is all that matters. Whoever meets the criteria set down by him (whatever they may be) is a Christian. Whoever doesn't isn't. The only man-definition that is correct is the one which matches the essential, christian-making elements which God proscribes.You put forward a man-definition that may or may not harmonize with Gods definition (the one that counts). If that definition is correct then that definiton is the one by which people can be defined to be Christian. But how could a pollster decide that a person "is following the rules as laid down by Jesus" Because the person says "I follow the rules laid down by Jesus"? Clearly the person may be lying are misguided and thinks that are following the rules. Such subjective polling is useless I disagree with your definition however. I contend that a person is made a Christian solely by action on Gods part. There is no law obeying required in order to be made a Christian by God. The spiritual quality I refer to is amply explained in the bible. A person who is not a Christian is 'spiritually dead' - that is the are not receptive to the spiritual things of God. When the person is 'born again' or made a Christian, then God brings their spirit to life. The Christian can now discern the things of God.If this is the case, as I suggest it is, then only a Christian (one who has an alive spirit) will be able to discern others who have the same thing. The 'it takes one to know one' conceptThere are any number of concepts as to what makes a Christian:- baptized as an infant
- claiming you are one
- going to church, praying
- being born of 'Christian' parents
- being born in a 'Christian' country
- being interested in theology..........etc,etcFailing a way to say for certain what a Christian actually is, I can't see how anyone can say somebody is or that they can claim to know someone is. I claim (but cannot prove) that I can potentially know - because I claim 'my' definition' of a Christian to be the one and only one.I'm not asking you to believe me - though it would be great if you did

Sorry Razd. should have made it clearer "spiritual things of God". It is possible for people to discern the spiritual world. But just not the area of God. Discernment means being able to sense God in his word and in his action - and know it is God at Work.

Perhaps you do not read what you write.The comparison between being a Christian and being a surgeon is silly. Surgeons actually have to do something, have some capabilities, follow a code of ethics.But based on what you've said in this thread, that's not true of Christians. According to you, being a Christian does not depend on behavior before or after becoming said. It has nothing to do with what a Christian does, can do, will do, or is seen to do.No, a surgeon is something different, but to be a Christian, all that's needed is profession.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion