The Clergy Project

don't you know? there are "kinds" of christians ...

Oh yes, I forgot..so when do i get to join the christian union? Do we get better wages if we pay our dues?

What you would probably accept is that these people have a theory about what motivates people and it is that to which you ultimately refer. We know it is a theory because whatever model is used is in a perpetual state of flux. In 100 years time folk will use a different model and the current will look amusingly crass in comparison. We think the theory is good and whilst it appears we can use it to 'help' people then it will become pseudo-factual. Which is a little different than factualIf, as I contest, that which makes a Christian is an act of God and the essential effectual elements of it are operative in the spiritual aspect of a person then the only things that can be measured are consequential outward expressions of what has gone on inside then that is all that can be measured. And these things can be falsified either deliberately or indeliberately.A person who has, for instance, been indoctrinated into 'walking a Christian walk' may do many of the things that a real Christian will do. So how could a physiatrist tell the difference. The only way one could refine ones instruments in order to measure accurateley is if one could calibrate them against the real thing. An insensitive instrument won't pick up the finer points of differenceAnd only a Christian would be in a position to calibrate the instruement. Thus "It takes one to know one" I guess Being a Christian is a spiritual thing. Thats where the transformation takes place. In the spiritual realm. There is nothing to guarentee that a Christian will start acting in a way in line with how the bible says he ought. The word is ought afterall - the Christian is not obliged to conform. So actions are not the measureA non-Christian is spiritually dead (according to the bible - but it is what a Chrisitan observes). It is not that they refuse to understand these things it is that they cannot understand these things (according to the bible - but it is what a Christian observes). A non-Christian can no more discern a Christian than can a person who has no ear for music tune up a guitar. It's not the non-Christians fault as it were."I was blind - now I see" If it is true that the non-Christian is blind then that is all there is to be said about it.

Being a Christian has nothing to do with religious denomination. One can be of no denomintation. A Christian may live in a country where there are no Christian denominations of any kind. Denomination is irrelevant.Christianity is a citizenship thing. Someone may be an infant Christianity-wise and hold on to all kinds of non-biblical view (or rather incorrect interpretations of what the bible says) but if they have been made a citizen it matters not. Citizenship is what counts. That act on Gods part which makes a person a citizen.Take the old testament believers. They had no gospel doctrine to either agree or disagree with, Christ had not yet come. It doesn't matter. They are saved "in Christ" as much as the person today can be saved in Christ even though he lived 2000 years ago. Who knows. Whilst a person who is made a Christian by God will likely undergo a transformation of view and action, it is not a dead cert that they will do no more wrong. Evil acts can be committed by a Christian. Actions may provide indicators but they are not the measure by which one can be sure. A person professing a belief is not necessarily the same as a person who actually believess.I do look at some of what the televangelists say and wonder.

As far as I can see, denomination is relivent since there is no single enitity that can claim being the one true way, I'm sorry but I just don't see how denomination doesn't matter since a lot of them conflict on basic rules and on parts that are outside the NT What defines "citizenship"?, this just seems arbitrary and less than a real answer How would they be "in Christ" since they didn't believe he was anything but a man? how can you be in anything if you don't believe it? does belief suddenly not matter? I'm asking this because I know that like anyone, no one likes to have thier own beliefs dictated to them

Hello iano,Much as I read your post, I cannot extract the concept: How can a christian detect if another person is christian or not? You say that a non christian cannot, so how can a christian do this? Please make it simple for me.Thanks.

and front row seats.

it's kind of like gay-dar. when you are one, you just know.you just know when someone has the same world view as you... when you know that you understand everything in the same way.

Piece of cake identifying a Christian. They stick their noses in other people`s business, and whine a lot. :-}

I agree. Other than the fact that someone claims to be a Christian, I see no way they could be identified. So when the signers of the document in the OP say I see no option other than accepting that they are, as they say, Christians.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

What denomination was Peter? What denomination was Paul? These people were simply Christians. Christian denominations are a man-made entity and whilst free to make up any denomination he likes, man is not adding anything effectual by doing so. The question would be: does the denomination include that salvation-effectual aspect which has nothing to do with man? That which existed before there were any denominations.I would hold that there is one true way of salvation. No-one presents it (or can prove that they present it) completely and utterly correctly. Misunderstanding and misinterpretation is to be found in them all. This however doesn't stop God (who is the one who does the converting) from operating through the misunderstanding to effect salvation. Thus there are Christians in RC/Protestant/Baptist/Evangelical denominations. And there are people in these denominations who are not Christians. And there are Christians in places where none of these denominations exist."I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it (the gospel) is the power of salvation for all who believe" God gave the gospel - not the denomination who presents it with varying degrees of accuracy The bible can only use spacio/temporal imagery to depict that which happens in a spiritual/eternal realm. So, whilst the analogies suffer from the same problems as any analogy, they are useful if we consider what can be extracted from them. The bible uses hellfire and brimstone imagery for Hell. That does not mean people will literally swim in seas of burning sulphur. The imagery tries to convey in terms we might understand, how appalling an existance there will be for the people who will reside there.Citizenship. What does that term convey? Firstly we must see that a person is made a citizen. No person is born a citizen of heaven. So lets look in that light:- citizenship is a legal/forensic position. It doesn't really concern itself with the individual but deals with the state of a person- a person who becomes a citizen of a land cannot make themselves one. It is the authority of the land which decided who may become a citizen. God makes people citizens. Why he would do and on what basis he does so lies elsewhere- a person cannot lose their citizenship. We might put people in jail or even execute them. But once they are a citizen they come under the control and influence of the land they are now in. Citizenship is not normally something which is considered revocable (the same goes for sonship or heirship. If someone is a son or an heir then they remain that forever. It is a permanent state.- Whilst it is possible to hold dual-citizenship now, this is not the case in the bible. A person is either under the dominion of light or darkness, in the spirit/in the flesh, a child of light/a child of darkness, in Christ/In Adam etc. This is underlined by the fact that believers are called aliens in this world (which is under the sway or control of the evil one). Their citizenship is in heaven. A citzen is under authority of only one dominion. Subject to the "law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus" or subject to the "law of sin and death". A person becoming a citizen of the US renounces his allegiance to his former land and pronounces his alliegience to the US When I said OT characters I meant pre-Christ. "Nobody comes to the father except through me" said Jesus. He means that for all people for all times: before him, while he was there, now.The coming of a Messiah was known back then. People looked forward to the day when he would come. People weren't as clear about what this would entail but they believed that God was going to do this and that it was necessary.If you look at people in Christs time and read the stories about folk who turned to him, they inevitably recognised him as Lord. They all confess that. Mary Magdelene, Peter, Zacherius the tax collector, the thief on the cross. All recognise him. If I can recognise him currently as my Lord and saviour 2000 years after he walked the earth it is only by an act of God. The same act can work prior to his being here

By all means make a personal decision but with no objective way to know one way or the other it is in fact a 50/50 toss up.You have the option of saying "I don't know". It seems to me to be the most honest and balanced of the two.

If you accepted for a moment that a Christian has an attribute that a non-Christian doesn't, to whit: the ability to discern spiritual things then it may be straightforward enough to understand.Now consider that attribute to be no different than an ear for music. It is relatively straightforward for a person with an ear for music to tell if another has an ear for music: if that other person sang a song and it was sung in tune then the listener would be able to infer that the singer too had an ear for music. (it takes one to know one). It would be as impossible to sing in tune without an ear as it would be to know if the song was being sang in tune without an ear.For the person who has no ear, things are different. They cannot know if the person singing has an ear or not - for want of having an ear themselves with which to discern the difference.That is how is is possible for a Christian to know that another is a Christian. It is only an analogy so shouldn't be extended to include all kinds of side issues (like; a person with a knowledge of the mathematical structure of music could analysis a recording mathematically and deduce the person was singing in tune)

But there most certainly is an objective way to tell. They said they are Christians. Why and how so? You said earlier that to know a Christian you must be a Christian. I happen to be a Christian. Therefore, according to your logic as you have laid out, I have the ability to know that they are Christians.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Someone says they are something and that means objectively that they are what they say they are. Jar...I'm disappointed in you See above...