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Author Topic:   Paleocurrents: the 'diverse' features of the GC were laid via rapid, correlated flow
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 109 (11436)
06-12-2002 10:14 PM


Here's some new stuff on paleocurrents (DEFINITION: flow rate/direction data extracted from strata. EG: from pebble, fossil and ripple marks of statistically significant consistent orientation). And GC = geological column. This link is a creationist study of the mainstream literature paleocurrent data.
Link: http://origins.swau.edu/papers/global/paleocurrents/default.html
"We have verified the stable southwesterly pattern of paleocurrents across the craton documented by others [Potter and Pryor(1961), Seeland(1968)] and have chronicled its persistence with some variation throughout the Paleozoic. In the Mesozoic the currents exhibit increasing variability and shift from predominantly westerly to predominantly easterly. By mid Cenozoic there is no discernible continent-wide paleocurrent pattern, reflecting expected tertiary basinal sedimentation. These patterns and transitions must accompany major changes in global current trends."
"Paleozoic paleocurrents indicate the influence of directional forces on a grand scale over an extended period. Various authors have attributed the directionality to such things as "regional slopes," but it is difficult to see how this could apply to deposits of such diverse origins over so wide an area. The lack of strong directionality in the underlying Precambrian sustains the need to seek understanding of what makes the Paleozoic style of sedimentation unique with respect to directional indicators".
I'll repost the mainstream stuff soon. We think these vast beds were part of the rapid inundation of flood waters. We're talking correlations horizontally across the entire continent of Nth America and vertically through much of the 300 million year Paleozoic.
The paleocurrent data also demonstrates a qualitative difference of the tertiary series from the Mesozoic/Paleozoic.
The two main points are that
(i) That the flows were sufficient to generate consistent alignment
(ii) The consistency extends to beds formed in 'diverse' environments. We believe the 'diverse' beds had a common origin and were not disconnected from each other.
This data is absolutely diagnostic of a rapid global flood.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-13-2002]

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by TrueCreation, posted 06-12-2002 11:20 PM Tranquility Base has replied
 Message 5 by edge, posted 06-13-2002 12:49 AM Tranquility Base has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 109 (11439)
06-12-2002 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tranquility Base
06-12-2002 10:14 PM


http://www.evcforum.net/Images/Smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]I can easilly agree with Tranquillity that this is an area which quantifiably is explained with ease by Flood Hydrology. If mind serves me right, Tranquillity has the impression that mesozoic+sediments are post-flood or atleast indicate the process through which abating flood waters occured. I would disagree [unless I misunderstand him] and say that these would indicate flow paths by which the waters drifted above the continents. Here is one resource which I found with a bit data for paleocurrent lothologies:
http://geology.swau.edu/ [Added by edit - Just noticed Chadwick as the same author as your reference Tranquillity]
--Its a bit tougher to find paleocurrent than topographical maps [IMG]
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[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-12-2002]</FONT><font size="1" color="#ffffff" face="Verdana, Arial">
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-12-2002 10:14 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-12-2002 11:42 PM TrueCreation has not replied

  
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 109 (11441)
06-12-2002 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by TrueCreation
06-12-2002 11:20 PM


^ I'm not that knowledgable about detailed flood models but I would tend to agree with you TC. I tend go along with the Mesozoic being genuine flood deposits.
As TC pointed out, this creationist Chadwick also seems to have the best paleocurrent maps on the web based on mainstream published data (these were the ones I posted last moth actually):
http://geology.swau.edu/
Here's an eg: http://geology.swau.edu/paleocur/pznorth.html
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-12-2002]

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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 109 (11442)
06-12-2002 11:56 PM


Repost of some quotes from Pettijohn (a mainstream paleocurrent expert):
F.J. Pettijohn Sedimentary Rocks 3rd Ed Harper & Row (New York) 1974
p520-521 "The stability or persistence of a particular paleocurrent system through time is indeed one of the most astonishing results of paleocurrent measurements. Cross-bedding in a 12,000 foot (3,660m) sequence in the Moine series of Scotland displays a uniformity of orientation throughout which was described by Sir Edward Bailey as "the most surprising single phenomenon" displayed by these strata (Wilson et al Geol Mag 90,377-387 (1953)). Pelletier (Pelletier et al Bull Geol Soc Amer 69, 1-33-1064 (1958)) has shown mean current direction to remain constant in strata ranging from Upper Devonian (Catskill) to Pennsylvanian (Pottsville) in age of Pennsylvania and Maryland. This means essentially stable paleoslope for a period of 150 to 200 milion years.
Moose - I direct you to these pages of the 3rd Ed of Pettijohn as you requested and the entire paleocurrent chapter.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-12-2002]

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-13-2002 6:54 PM Tranquility Base has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1707 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 5 of 109 (11446)
06-13-2002 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tranquility Base
06-12-2002 10:14 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
This data is absolutely diagnostic of a rapid global flood.
This is a nice assertion, but WHY? Why would the current directions for you flood be any different from the current directions from the existing flood of today (the existing seas)?
Sorry, but this is not compelling. In fact, Chadwick admits that there is a lot of noise in the data that would mean a certain amount of inconsistencey thought the approximate prevailing currents are similar. This is exactly what I would expect from any shelf deposits developed during gradual transgression. Would you sea any reason for currents to change on say the east coast if the sea level rose over a few million years? I see no necessity for it. Paleoslopes woud be the same, the basic outline of the continent would be the same areas of upwelling and sinking of the currents would be relatively unchanged. Sorry, but this is not diagnostic of a global flood. Back to the old drawing board!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-12-2002 10:14 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-13-2002 1:45 AM edge has not replied
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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 109 (11454)
06-13-2002 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by edge
06-13-2002 12:49 AM


Edge, we'll have to see what the modern strata paleocurrents look like but I already know that you will not get ordered paleocurrents across thousands of square miles of today's shelves (I have scuba dived). The entire Precambrian doesn't have ordered paelocurrents - that is more like your epeiric seas. (Within creationist internal debates, this is actually good evidence for my 1000 year day stuff). The noise is superimposed on to the correlated flow. You can't argue wioth data. Much of the noise would be due to local 3D topography of course. The basic point is you would not get paleocurrents from a gradual innundation. You would get the Precambiran type zero paelocurrent strata. That is my well founded expectation. You show me modern day shelf sediments which have ordered paleocurrents over thousands of square miles.
Either way there is something very different about Paleozoic and Precambrian innundations. One was rapid, the other was not.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-13-2002]

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Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by gene90, posted 06-13-2002 11:04 PM Tranquility Base has replied
 Message 34 by wehappyfew, posted 06-16-2002 10:12 PM Tranquility Base has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 109 (11474)
06-13-2002 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by edge
06-13-2002 12:49 AM


"This is a nice assertion, but WHY? Why would the current directions for you flood be any different from the current directions from the existing flood of today (the existing seas)?"
--Are you expecting flood waters to lay perfectly still while they inundate the worlds continent(s)? There are many factors by which this would effect flood hydrology in prevailing currents sea-wide. I believe baumgardner and Barnette did some modeling of ocean circulation patterns over the continents as the Flood occurred. I haven't gotten the chance to read it though and I am not sure on their exact stances, nor did they take into account paleocurrents.
------------------
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-13-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by edge, posted 06-13-2002 12:49 AM edge has not replied

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gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 8 of 109 (11515)
06-13-2002 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by TrueCreation
06-13-2002 12:13 PM


[QUOTE][b]--Are you expecting flood waters to lay perfectly still while they inundate the worlds continent(s)?[/QUOTE]
[/b]
No, which is why I wouldn't expect to find any of these:
http://geology.about.com/library/bl/images/blhoodoo.htm
It would topple too easily.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by TrueCreation, posted 06-13-2002 12:13 PM TrueCreation has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-13-2002 8:33 PM gene90 has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 9 of 109 (11516)
06-13-2002 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tranquility Base
06-12-2002 11:56 PM


From TB:
quote:
Repost of some quotes from Pettijohn (a mainstream paleocurrent expert):
F.J. Pettijohn Sedimentary Rocks 3rd Ed Harper & Row (New York) 1974
p520-521 "The stability or persistence of a particular paleocurrent system through time is indeed one of the most astonishing results of paleocurrent measurements. Cross-bedding in a 12,000 foot (3,660m) sequence in the Moine series of Scotland displays a uniformity of orientation throughout which was described by Sir Edward Bailey as "the most surprising single phenomenon" displayed by these strata (Wilson et al Geol Mag 90,377-387 (1953)). Pelletier (Pelletier et al Bull Geol Soc Amer 69, 1-33-1064 (1958)) has shown mean current direction to remain constant in strata ranging from Upper Devonian (Catskill) to Pennsylvanian (Pottsville) in age of Pennsylvania and Maryland. This means essentially stable paleoslope for a period of 150 to 200 milion years.
There is also, on page 520, a series of paleocurrent diagrams that show a strong preferred paleocurrent direction to the northwest (I've posted this diagram before).
As noted above, the rock units include the Upper Devonian Catskill and Pennsylvanian Pottsville. The diagrams also include the Mississsippian Pocono and Mauch Chunk units.
I now refer to page 580-582 of the Pettijohn book, where he discusses the molasse sedimentary facies. The above four units are cited (page 582) as being molasse type deposits.
I don't wish to type large amounts of text from Pettijohn, other that this (From page 580):
quote:
The molasse association consists mainly of sandstone and shales.
And from page 581:
quote:
The molasse association is thus neither continental nor marine but rather both; it consists of an association of sediments formed in varying local environments including those of the beach and foreshore, the tidal lagoon, and alluval deposits in part deltaic, in part floodplain with its backwater swamp, and in part alluvial fans. In short, the area of molasse sidimentation is a deltaic coastal plain and its inland extension to the mountain front (Fig. 14-14, page 522).
Essentially, these molasse type deposits are clastic wedges; sediments that were shed off of the tectonicly lifted Appalachian Mountains.
It may be part marine, but that part is near shore marine. Also note, that that northwest paleocurrent trend is a right angle to the general trend of the Appalachian Mountains.
Moose
------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-12-2002 11:56 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-13-2002 8:37 PM Minnemooseus has replied

  
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 109 (11523)
06-13-2002 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by gene90
06-13-2002 6:32 PM


Gene90, so how did these hoodoos form from a mainstream POV?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by gene90, posted 06-13-2002 6:32 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by TrueCreation, posted 06-13-2002 8:55 PM Tranquility Base has not replied
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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 109 (11524)
06-13-2002 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Minnemooseus
06-13-2002 6:54 PM


Moose, I don't doubt that there are mixed marine/non-marine beds. We obviously expect that in our model where we are getting marine innundation and catastrophic freshwater flooding from highlands. Regardless there is still an overwhelming general current bias that is maintained vertically and horizontally that demonstrates rapidity and connectivity across time and space.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-13-2002 6:54 PM Minnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-13-2002 9:17 PM Tranquility Base has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 109 (11526)
06-13-2002 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Tranquility Base
06-13-2002 8:33 PM


"Gene90, so how did these hoodoos form from a mainstream POV? "
--Pretty much exactly the way they formed in our perspective, g-whiz who would have ever thought of that
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-13-2002 8:33 PM Tranquility Base has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 13 of 109 (11528)
06-13-2002 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tranquility Base
06-13-2002 8:37 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Moose, I don't doubt that there are mixed marine/non-marine beds. We obviously expect that in our model where we are getting marine innundation and catastrophic freshwater flooding from highlands. Regardless there is still an overwhelming general current bias that is maintained vertically and horizontally that demonstrates rapidity and connectivity across time and space.
No, it means that you had a southeast-northwest trending mountain range, that was being eroded. The sediments were transported by alluvial processes (rivers), in a generally northwest direction. The sediments found, support a uniformitarianistic process quite nicely.
To requote my Pettijohn:
quote:
...a deltaic coastal plain and its inland extension to the mountain front.
Sounds like primarily non-marine, fluvial deposition to me.
To requote your Pettijohn:
quote:
This means essentially stable paleoslope for a period of 150 to 200 milion years.
Moose
------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-13-2002 8:37 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-13-2002 9:24 PM Minnemooseus has replied

  
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 109 (11531)
06-13-2002 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Minnemooseus
06-13-2002 9:17 PM


Moose, I've agreed in several places that local 3D topgraphy would have generated the noise. It does not take away from the general continent wide correlation in orientation or the fact that there are continent wide rapid flows in the first place. And I thought mountains were eroded in about 10 million years?
Your continent was flooded by rapid correlated marine flows and this was supplemented by freshwater flows down slopes.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-13-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-13-2002 9:17 PM Minnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-13-2002 9:42 PM Tranquility Base has replied
 Message 19 by gene90, posted 06-13-2002 10:46 PM Tranquility Base has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 15 of 109 (11533)
06-13-2002 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tranquility Base
06-13-2002 9:24 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Moose, I've agreed in several places that local 3D topgraphy would have generated the noise. It does not take away from the general continent wide correlation in orientation or the fact that there are continent wide rapid flows in the first place. And I thought mountains were eroded in about 10 million years?
First of all, I find that I should make a clarification on what I was referring to as the Appalachian Mountains. More accurately, it would have been the precursor mountain range, of which the current Appalachian Mountains are a reminent. Other reminents are the mountains of eastern Europe.
Now, indeed, I was focusing in on a smaller area. But that smaller area has rocks that are evidence for a non-"flood" process.
I have no data on the time limits to a mountain range existance, but the previous discussion would indicate it is much more than 10 million years.
As for your "general continent wide correlation in orientation" (of paleocurrents); this will require more study on my part. For now, I would ask you how and why do you define your "continent wide rapid flows" as being "rapid"?
Moose
------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-13-2002 9:24 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-13-2002 9:51 PM Minnemooseus has replied

  
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