ICR Sues Texas

I throw myself prostrate before the good people of the EvC forum and beg your forgiveness and understanding.I tried to read the Complaint. I really did. But after about 10 pages or so, my brain hurts. Thus, I shan't have any brilliant commentary on the merits vel non of the lawsuit, other than this: Pfhbhtphbfttbttt! (thanks, Bill!)I think that there is often a general impression among those not learned in the law that legal writing is impenetrable except to those who've joined the club, and that it's done that way on purpose. I can tell you in my practice, I made conscious efforts to write clearly and in everyday language that anyone could understand. But I've seen enough bad writing by bad, lazy, stupid, overworked attorneys to understand where the general impression comes from.If anyone here is inclined to take a shot at reading the Complaint, please don't assume that part of the problem is that you don't speak legalese. There's no legalese in that Complaint. It's crap, not to put too fine a point on it. I wholeheartedly concur in the opinions expressed by Andrew in his piece, with the marvelous title, You Don’t Trust Creationists With Your Science Education Here’s Why You Shouldn’t Trust Their Lawyers, Either.

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For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Here is another piece on the suit, a bit richer in analysis for those who want to learn a bit more about the law involved.As an aside, I'm curious to see if anyone else can identify the source of the quote at the top of his blog, without the assistance of Google.

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For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

A long time ago in a galaxy far away, I used to do some civil rights defense work, handling pro se prisoner cases. Often times, the biggest challenge was trying to figure out what they were complaining about and how it might conceivably fit into a recognizable legal claim. None of the pleadings that I ever saw in that work was nearly as incomprehensible as this Complaint. And I mean that seriously and literally. Words fail me in trying to fully describe the atrociousness of this turd of a document.And my brain still hurts.

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For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Hmmmmm......I'm tempted to only give you half credit without an episode name, but I'm feeling generous.

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For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

I'm tempted to also give you only half credit because of monkey boy's hint, but I'm still feeling generous.

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For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

The Omega Glory. second season, episode 23, first broadcast March 1, 1968. And yes, the Yangs did worship the flag and held the founding documents sacred, but Kirk et. al taught them that the ideas in the founding documents were for WE THE PEOPLENot a great episode, but not nearly third season bad.(Nervously looking back and forth for admin intervention.)

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For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Oh no. The Omega Glory was better than either Turnabout Intruder or Let That Be Your Last Battlefield.

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For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

I disagree that The Omega Glory was a nationalistic message. The Yangs worshiped the forms and the documents of America, but lost the main point that freedom was for all the people. In other words, our rights are not reserved for those who wrap themselves in the flag, but belong to everyone; a point that rather needed to be made in 1968.

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For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

In an effort to drag this thread back on track, (sorry, Dr. A.) I'd like to discuss one aspect of Texas law that, perhaps, the ICR might have thought it could use to its advantage.In HEB Ministries, Inc v. Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board, the Texas supreme court held that the First Amendment prohibits the state from dictating requirements for post-secondary schools that offered religious education. A Texas statute set forth requirements that all post-secondary schools must meet before they can use certain terms in the name of their institutions, or before they could use certain terms in describing the level of achievement that their graduates attained.The court reasoned that applying this general scheme for regulating educational institutions to schools of religious education would, in essence, result in the state giving its seal of approval to certain types of religious instruction, and withholding it from others. This sort of preferential treatment for some types of religious instruction violated both the U.S. and the Texas Constitutions.Given the extraordinary lack of anything approaching intelligence demonstrated in the crafting of the Complaint, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the attorney for ICR is contemplating using this case to advance his position. I can tell you that several commentaries on the ICR suit seem to think that the victory in HEB Ministries bodes well for the ICR. However, to the extent that the ICR wants to issue a degree relating to science education, HEB Ministries is of no use to it whatsoever.The HEB Ministries opinion goes to some length to describe the particular educational program offered at Tyndale Theological Seminary. Out of 172 courses, 162 dealt exclusively with religious instruction of one sort or another. Of the other ten, three were in general education, Reading, Grammar and World History, and the other seven were in typing, word processing and internet research. All of the diplomas the school offered were in fields of religious instruction. It was very important to the court that all of the instruction was exclusively religious in content and purpose.The court agreed that the state had a legitimate interest in ensuring that post-secondary educational institutions met certain minimum standards of education for the protection of students attending them, as well as to ensure that employers could rely on degrees issued by Texas schools in areas outside of religious instruction. And as we are all aware, the ICR is trying to portray its education as something other than a religious one, insisting scientific training in anti-evolutionism is a legitimate field of endeavor. However, the minute the move outside the field of religious instruction, they are then compelled to meet the same requirements that any other post-secondary institution must meet.If you hear or read anyone arguing that HEB Ministries v. Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board supports the ICR's lawsuit, rest assured that they don't understand the position that the HEB Ministries[/i] case stands for.

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For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

He's already provided all the evidence he has. Twice! Why do you people refuse to acknowledge that?The evidence is that it looks designed. What more could you possibly want?

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Except for the fact that they applied for accreditation. You do know what accreditation means, don't you?

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

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We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

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...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

Do you have any evidence that the ICR was subject to standards different from any other institution?

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

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We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

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...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

Because those mean ole scientists make 'em do real science work before they accept it. Bunch of secular elitists (even the Christian ones).

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

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We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

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...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

You are using a computer that was produced by science. You drive a car that was produced by science. We sent men to the moon using science. Millions of lives are saved by medicine that is a result of science. Have you ever heard of Norman Borlaug? (A University of Minnesota alum I might point out.) He used science to revolutionize farming and has saved tens of millions of lives.Even if the IDiot bullshit had ever produced one single discovery useful to humankind, (please, if you wish to claim that is has, provide a specific example) it would pale into nothingness in comparison to the countless myriad ways science has improved everyone's life, including even yours. The debate was won even before the first IDiot coined the term intelligent design. And you ignoring this message won't make it the least bit less accurate.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

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We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

Because it can be explained without the need for a designer. One ought not introduce an extra element into an explanation where none is necessary.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

​

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

​

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist