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Author Topic:   ICR Sues Texas
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 549 (573916)
08-13-2010 5:17 AM


i have heard about this lawsuit and i disagree with two things:
1. the move to texas by icr
2. the suing of texas by icr.
they had a good thing in california and now they are wasting a lot of money in a move they should not have done and in pursuing something via the legal system
thenon the other hand, since the secular world does not own the field of science they have no authority to say what is or isn't scientific.

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 549 (574117)
08-14-2010 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Wounded King
08-13-2010 5:57 AM


What the secular world is quite within its right to do is to decline to offer its own support and accreditation of what the ICR considers to be science.
the former i can agree with but the latter, i am not sure

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 549 (574262)
08-15-2010 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
08-14-2010 9:09 AM


link please.
it would surprise many secularists to know that their beloved science has its foundation in religion and bible believing people:
As a matter of fact, the most discerning historians and philosophers of science have recognized that the very existence of modern science had its origins in a culture atleast nominally committed to a biblical basis and at a time in history marked by a great return to biblical faith. As a matter if fact, authorization for the developement of science and technology was specifically commissioned in God's primeval mandate to Adam and Eve (gen. 1:26-8) and many early scientists, especially in england and america viewed it just this way.
{Men of Science-Men of God pg. 1-2}
now i do not 100% agree with the assessment the author makes on the list of men he writes about but he makes a good point. in reading that passage again, i think the author picked the wrong one to use as i do not see the same thing as he does.

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 549 (574272)
08-15-2010 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dr Adequate
08-15-2010 3:09 AM


Signed by 12,665 Christian clergy as of this Tuesday.
yet that does not mean that evolution is correct and creatism is wrong. With God the majority does not rule nor determine what is right, wrong, truth or error. God has set that standard and left it up to people to choose which they will accept and believe.
all that shows is that 12,665 clergy do not believe the God they claim to serve and it is a sad day for the world that it is so.
It is interesting to see how fundamentalists simultaneously (falsely) ascribe science to their religion and (foolishly) deny the results of science
being founded by does not mean they have to accept all results nor that those results are consistant with the founding fathers beliefs, especially when the field has been altered by contrary beliefs.

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 549 (574469)
08-16-2010 5:27 AM


There's this great website called Google, I don't know if youve heard of it.
i avoid using it if possible but if someone is going to quote an article, it is up to them to post the link. i am not going to do their work for them.
fact that all of the evidence supports evolution while none of it supports creationism. You see, evolution is a conclusion based upon the evidence
no that is backwards and even many scientists have found this to be not true. read 'the slaughter of the dissidents' to get an idea of how many really do not accept this line of thinking or evolution.
The point is that the faith you think is an inviable truth is just one of many faith-based belief systems and is not universally shared. You can no more prove the truth of your faith than anyone else can prove theirs.
this is one thing that secularists need to understand about religion, they cannot go around lumping everyone into one category, to be part of the Bible one has to follow God's rules and instructions and if they deviate from and change them then they are not par tof God's kingdom nor christian.
they are what are called false teachers, which brings me back to the rules i mentioned in another thread. it is either true or false, no inbetween. one has to be discerning and Paul laid out one of the main criteria to judge whatis true or false--'if anyone brings a different gospel than the one Jesus and His disciples brought...' that is one way how we know who is or isn't a christian.
Science, on the other hand, is not in the business of proving things
and that is why you cannot rely, depend, trust secular science--they are not looking for answers and many people die not knowing anything because they looked to science and they are lost. God is a God of answers and you get to choose that is why the Bible is better than wscience, we get answers and do not have to waste time, energy or money looking for them.
yes we still can investigate how solar systems work, how plants grow, , how earthquakes and thunder are produced and so on but we do not have to question origins.
Science employs a method for understanding the natural world through the gathering of evidence, around which theories can be constructed and consensus developed through successful predictions
i really wish you would quit tellingme things i already know. doesn't matter, that is the wrong way to do things because this workld and the universe did not come into existance via natural means, so open your mind instead of repeating the standard party line.
Most of our mathematics came from the Hindu and Muslim cultures
no that i snot really true. most people credit the greeks but guess who they got it from--the babylonians and other more advanced ancient civilizations. as i said in another thread, the babylonians had the pythagorium theory 2,000 years before pythagorius. so if you want to credit someone, go to the egyptians the babylonians, the assyrians and the sumerians.
The point is that your idea that an understanding and acceptance of Evolution is not compatible with Christianity or any other religion has been refuted, you are simply wrong.
i see you are describing yourself again, i am in line with God's word and that is the only thing i have to be in line with.
Why do you think there are so many Christian Denominations, none of which are the same as the original.
the former: people have free choice an dif they do not like a doctrine or worship style, they get enough like-minded people and go off and start their own church.
the latter: not true. there are many like the original or there would be no light left in the world to show the unbelievers the true way to go.

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 549 (574470)
08-16-2010 5:36 AM


here is an update and analysis by a non-christian:
http://www.texscience.org/...awsuit-analysis-2009April20.htm
and another analysis:
You Don’t Trust Creationists With Your Science Education… Here’s Why You Shouldn’t Trust Their Lawyers, Either | Evaluating Christianity
the california decision:
The Skeptic Files - SkepticFiles Setting
icrs website, i couldn't find anything about their lawsuit yet
The Institute for Creation Research | The Institute for Creation Research
one of the things that bothers me is that the christian university/college/seminary does not need to be recognized by the secular world nor does it need to put itself under secular rules. by looking for accreditation or recognition by the secualr world then their curriculums are overseen by those who do not believe and it causes problems, as we can see by the lawsuits.
christians, and by extension their educational institutions, are to be the light to the world thus they should set their own rules, and strive to teach the best material possible in the best way that is glorifying to Christ. we do not need our degrees rexcognized by harvard or secualr institutions for that is not our goal. our goal is to teach the truth, teach it correctly andprepare our youth for the spiritual war that they will face.
sadly, that is not done and we have a weakened church because of it.
Edited by archaeologist, : No reason given.

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 549 (574565)
08-16-2010 5:22 PM


precious little of what the ICR (and other organisations like it) teaches is true.
that is a matter of opinion but to get a dig in here------ evolution is not correct.
So many Christian sects, so little time. Why don't you explain to us the difference in interpretation of God's rules that makes you right and, say, the Methodists wrong?
i never said the methodists were wrong, nor the baptists, nor the nazerenes and many other like minded denominations. if the denomination holds to the basic doctrines that comprise christianity then their beliefs are not wrong. even some pentecostal ones. it is when they err in doctrine do they become wrong.
say the united church or the episcopoal one where they are ordaining homosexuals--that is just wrong and against scripture. you ave to check their beliefs against scripture to make sure they belief the truth.
If this were true then the best scientific answers would flow out of conservative Christian colleges and universities, but for the most part no scientific answers at all come from these institutions.
that is subjective and depends upon what you consider scientific answers and what is the best? your way? at best, science canonly provide answers about tectonics, volcanoes, how bodies functions, and so on. it cannot discuss origins nor claim that evolution exists, fo the former is outside of its scope and the latter never existed.
Why should science not ask questions about origins? Or about anything, for that matter? Where is this rule found in the Bible, and if you find it, how do you know it is a rule of God and not simply what some person wrote down?
because the answer has already been provided. and we take it by faith partof the equation made by God. i do not see ow you will be able to replicate a one time supernatural act when science and scientists do not possess God's power.
I presume you believe it's okay for science to ask questions about paternity. DNA tests do this pretty well. So you presumably agree DNA testing can go back one generation.
my felings on DNA are that it is good as far as the researchers are honest and that research is easily manipulated, subject to social, political, academic & legal pressures which influence the results {we have all heard of the forensic scientists who have altered their tests to convict criminals}
so it is like the rest of science, done wrong, it is very wrong, done right, it can be ofhelp {and in the science thread I posted links to articles where DNA can be faked so i do not trust secular scientists, and some christian ones when they claim certain results}.
At what point do you believe DNA testing is no longer valid for determining relatedness, and why?
it has little to do with how many genrations it goes back and more with WHOM is doing the research.
Not really. The material you link to is prior to the judgment reported in post #31.
sorry, i posted what i could find, though som ei knew were older.
That should be "any more", not "yet".
They did have information on it on their website, but apparently they took it down --- the writer in the link suggests that they did so out of embarrassment, but this is not an emotion that one readily associates with YECs
i wouldn't know that i think that ICR went too far.
Who knows why creationists do what they do? But one might speculate that since they never get even the tiniest sign of approval from their god, they are obliged to seek it from men.
actually we do but too many want to do things their own way not God's.
That is called the tactic of avoidance and sadly the Christian Cult of Ignorance seems to be adopting it en masse
no, wrong again.
The problem is that the world actually exists and many kids can actually think and if you are not very, very careful those kids open their eyes and see that you have been teaching them nonsense
no. the problem is that the secular world rejects the existence of the devil and think everything is okay and that no deception is going on. what is it that they say...'the first thing the devil did was convince people he did not exist...'
The result is that the kids totally abandon Christianity.
people abandoned christianity for many reasons with some being they want what the world offers and do not want to suffer with Christ.
you cannot have christianity and say you believe God then start adding in secular thinking to the mix. that is not christianity but disobedience to God who gave clear instructions not to follow the unbelieving world.
for many the lure of secular science is too appealing for them to ignore it, thus they choose that over truth. Christianity is not about science, the truth is not about science nor completely found in it {it has some truth--not evoution--but...}
in all the years i have been discussing science with atheists and evolutionists, there is one common thread or theme. they think all science is good and they never look onthe evil science has wrought.
to start: dr. mengeles and other nazi scientists; pestilance, poisons; tools of war- tanks, napalm, mustard gas...; medicines which bring severe side effects, worse than the disease itself; and so much more.
you cannot overlook the evil because the field is telling you what you want to hear about origins and crops and health. to do so is hypocritical and destroys your credibility/

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 549 (574643)
08-17-2010 4:44 AM


And if this nonsense applied to real people rather than to imaginary people who live in your head, you'd have a point.
Really, in your fantasy world I don't disapprove of Dr Mengele?
and here is a good reason why there cannever be a good discussionbetween christians and secularists, thelatter refuses to acknowledge the evil side f science and the evil people who help populate it.
shall we talk eugenics next? and the horrors the american government did to people in the name of science?
Sure you did. Back in Message 40 about the clergy letter supporting evolution you said:
this brings up another good reason why it is difficult to have a discussion with secularists--they over-generalize. the clergy do not make up all the methodists nor methodist denominations.
this methodist denom. believes in God the creator:
Home - Bethany United Methodist Church
and this one as well
Free Methodist Church - Wikipedia
at least from their official positions.
So you think that origins are outside of the scope of science, and that evolution has "never existed," but you don't appear to have thought this through. Science can study the evolutionary changes between you and your parents
i am going to stop right there as you seem to be too closed minded to entertain opposing viewpoints. there are no evolutionary changes between generations, that is simple brainwashing to think otherwise. it doesn't matter how many people accept or agree to the false theory of evolution it is still not responsible nor has it ever existed.
the great evolution conspiracy again, engaged in by scientists of all religions and no religion, and from all nations and all cultures.
never said that, so don't read into my words what you want me to say. my statement merely meant the character, the ability and so on and had nothing to do with a conspiracy.
When you find evidence of what DNA research the researchers have not been honest about or that has been manipulated due to "social, political, academic & legal pressures" then you please let us know, but until then perhaps you could just answer the question, which I'll repeat:
you obviously do not listen to the news very much. there was a lady out in new jersey i believe who falsified DNA tests for years to put people behind bars. the evidence is out there and science is not as lily white as you want it to be.
but that is another good reason why christians cannot have good discussions with unbelievers--they deny, deny deny and refuse to see the truth about their field and their false theory.
the rest was asked and answered and that answer was generous enough.

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 549 (574652)
08-17-2010 7:07 AM


well i doubt that and know you are wrong.
anyways, with that said, i will be posting here a lot less as i do not see any real discussion happening anytime soon. this forum is designed to continue deceiving itself and it refuses to be open-minded.
i would ask that you all stop talking about the Bible because unless you are a true Christian and lead by the Holy Spirit you will not understand it and you are basically wrong in your conclusions about it and what it says.
i put the Bible ahead of all fields because that is where it is supposed to be, and it sheds light on all that is said about each and shows the right path to walk. secular science is the blind leading the blind and has no clue about what it speaks.
The reason, then, that there can be no "good discussion" between us is that when I clearly say one thing, you can always run away to the fantasy world in your head where I say the exact opposite.
the socalled 'objectivity' principle is again undermined by the bais and hatred of those who do not believe. you can't claim objectivity when you want or whenit benefits you. you either practice it or you don't and you cannot demand of others to practice it, especially when you don't.
another good reason why there can never be good discussion between christians and unbelievers. the unbelievers demand it of the christian, who cannot practice it, and they refuse to practice it because they are afraid to find out how wrong they are.
Do not put quotations from, and answers to, other people in messages which appear as replies to my posts
these are my posts, i will do it as i please.
I presume you believe it's okay for science to ask questions about paternity. DNA tests do this pretty well. So you presumably agree DNA testing can go back one generation.
the problem with secularists is that they do not give credit where credit is due, it is not evolution nor science that has accomplished anything. a person with God given intelligence has done it, as gen. 1:30 says '...the universe and the earth were complete in all their vast array...' this closes the door on evolution in any form, even-micro and natural selection.
God designed things to work in a certain way but because Adam sinned, death, sin, corruption entered the world and screwed it all up. mutations happen because of this corruption not because there is some unintelligent, unknowing process supposedly changing everything- i am not the one entering a fantasy world, secularists do when they run from the truth.
as for this lawsuit, i think ICR was very wrong but texas is also wrong in forcing evolution upon all its students. we are not to teach lies and that is all evolution is.

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 549 (574845)
08-18-2010 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by hooah212002
08-17-2010 9:27 AM


This is a common thread among you religious nutters, isn't it?
actually i always got it from atheists and evolutionists, even on this forum.
Your idea of compromise or open mindendness is for everyone to see things YOUR way
i think i explained this once before onhere but not sure. We believers do not have to do any more searching, we have found the truth thus we do not have to be 'open-minded', or 'consider alternatives' and so on, for we have already been where you are at and we have made a choice. Once that choice is made, we do not consider returning to the alternatives.
there is no new evidence about origins, so that i snot even germane to the issue. the rest of your post is just worthless and will be ignored.

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 549 (574847)
08-18-2010 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Rrhain
08-17-2010 10:00 PM


You mean there are subjects that we aren't allowed to investigate? What sort of nonsense is that? No scientist would ever declare something off limits
scientists, especially secular ones, need to learn that there are boundaries and morals they can't not violate.
If you aren't going to do your homework, what makes you think you have anything useful to contribute
i have done my homework that is why i do not use google, there are better search engines out there that produce the exact same materials.
Methinks you may be referring to the supposed "list" that Answers in Genesis and the Discovery Institute claim to have regarding hundreds of "scientists" who "doubt evolution."
nope. i only use AIG when i have to, usually i seek out other sources first.
It turns out that there are many times more scientists simply named "Steve" that support evolution than there are all scientists who "dissent." Given that "Steve" represents only a fraction of all scientists, it is clear that this "theory in crisis" claim of yours simply isn't supported.
so? this doesn't mean a thing nor proves evolution true or that it actually exists. it jst means that these people decided to follow a different path than the Biblical one.
Richard Sternberg claims that he was fired from the Smithsonian but nothing could be further from the truth. In reality, his wasn't fired from the NIH. Too, his position at the Smithsonian was extended. Far from the severity of his claim that his life was "nearly ruined" because of his paper, he didn't suffer any consequences at all.
links? i think you are confusing the facts but i saw that movie and thought it was great. one thing is the man they highlighted about the smithsonian or whoever that were upset by the publication, i knew about it long before Ben Stein and company turned it into part of a movie.
Logical error
i do not respond to these or logical fallacies as they are worthless and written by those who do not believe.

This message is a reply to:
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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 549 (575457)
08-20-2010 4:20 AM


even though i disagree with the lawsuit, there is one thing that is lost in the noise of batle between secular and christian. public schools, even universities, are for the public and christians make up a large proportion of that number.
it is morally wrong for any government to ignore the educational needs of its public by slanting the education towards the secular ideology. it is not correct, it leads believers to sin and it does not serve the community.
if the evolutionist or atheist want their special classes in their accepted topics, then they should fork over the money and build their own private schools, pay their own teachers and igh tuition.
it is not right nor fair to force one segment of the public to bear high expenses while the atheist and evolutionist enjoy a free education.paid for in part by the educational tax dollars of the christian.
since the believer pays their fare share of taxes, they have the right to demand a non-secular education from their public school officials and from the public school teachers. if they refuse then they need to be removed from their jobs for deriliction of duty.
the public interest is not limited to the secular population. tus in one aspect, the texas school baord or university board and the judges have failed those they are to represent

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 549 (576427)
08-24-2010 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by hooah212002
08-21-2010 6:45 AM


Re: In light of the mention of U.K. Faith Schools
Hiding off topic portion of text. --Admin
Edited by Admin, : Hide.

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 549 (577284)
08-27-2010 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Taq
08-20-2010 4:33 PM


Would you be ok with a World Religions course where the tenets of the world's major religions are taught to students? Such a course would fit in just fine within the secular school curiculum.
i would have no problem with this as long as the teacher was honest and did not slant the teaching to highlight just one faith.
Most people think it is morally wrong for a government to take tax dollars and spend that money on religious indoctrination. Perhaps you should visit the Middle East to get a good dose of how a theocracy works. I think you would come running back to the good ol' secular US in about a week.
yes i know but i thinkit is worse to compell only one part of the population to pay more than the other for the education they want. if atheists want evolution then they should start their own private schools like christians and others are forced to do.
i know how a theocracy works and the middle east is not a true one. it is a human led one and i wouldn't want many evangelicals leading a christian either. if God were truly in charge then I would be fine but with humans leading, it would go bad quickly. [/qs]The US Constitution forbids it.[/qs]
where? if you are thinking of the seperation of church and state, that is not in the constitution.
But the government is limited to acting in a secular fashion
no it is not. the government can change any rule they want.

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 549 (577286)
08-27-2010 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Nij
08-23-2010 10:26 AM


Likewise. 13 years of Catholicism-supplemented education, and not a single desire to ever have more of it. We had mass around once a week, REST once a day (sometimes less), and I'm quite sure nobody in my school actually believes in any of it.
you had it easy. in college i had chapel 3 times a week, class prayer meeting once a week, fridays was missionary prayer bands and friday night was missionary meeting. then sundays we had to go to church both in the morning and evening.
not that most of it was bad, it just got tedious, boring, and interruptive at times. i mena some sundays you just wanted to go nowhere but you couldn't stay away or you would be given an absence which after a certain number they started to count against you.

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