Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-27-2019 5:03 AM
20 online now:
(20 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Upcoming Birthdays: ooh-child
Post Volume:
Total: 854,844 Year: 9,880/19,786 Month: 2,302/2,119 Week: 338/724 Day: 1/62 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23456
...
17NextFF
Author Topic:   2/3rds of Americans want creationism taught.
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3072 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 1 of 253 (238784)
08-31-2005 1:44 AM


According to the NYTs, 2/3rds of Americans believe creationism should be taught along-side ToE.

In a finding that is likely to intensify the debate over what to teach students about the origins of life, a poll released yesterday found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html

We live in a democratic republic, and moreover parents should have a say in the schools they and the public pay for, in educating their children. If 2/3s of the public want a topic presented alongside evolution, then it's only going to create backlash if those wishes are ignored.

IMO, present the factual arguments. Education is not a bad thing. If ToE is so superiour to creationism and ID, then it will be apparent, and if not, then truth is served.

On a secondary note, considering by law, evolution is the only theory taught, and that the vast majority of media pumps pro-evo messages and concepts out contiually, I think evos ought to consider that just maybe the reason so many think creationism has some validity is not due to ignorance, blind faith, etc,...but that many of these people are like me, and once believed ToE was unquestionably true, but discovering the many overstatements we were taught to instill that faith in ToE, many of us lost faith, not because of ignorance, but due to more education.

In other words, IDers and creationists in general have very little grant money, influence, authority, etc,...and 2/3rds of Americans are not hard-core Bible thumpers. There's a reason creationist criticisms of evolution have been effective, and a big part of it is the criticisms have merit.

This message has been edited by randman, 08-31-2005 01:49 AM


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 08-31-2005 2:04 AM randman has responded
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 08-31-2005 2:24 AM randman has responded
 Message 8 by Nuggin, posted 08-31-2005 3:08 AM randman has responded
 Message 9 by Nuggin, posted 08-31-2005 3:21 AM randman has responded
 Message 29 by PaulK, posted 08-31-2005 8:24 AM randman has not yet responded
 Message 39 by Coragyps, posted 08-31-2005 4:38 PM randman has not yet responded
 Message 100 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2005 1:25 PM randman has responded
 Message 190 by joshua221, posted 01-01-2006 12:53 AM randman has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 2 of 253 (238787)
08-31-2005 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
08-31-2005 1:44 AM


Democracy does not determine what is good science.

I don't have any problem with creationism being taught, but not in science classes. Put it in a class on comparative religions class, or in a class on ancient myths, or in a class on contemporary controversies.

This is a manufactured controversy. It's not as if students can't learn about creationism at home or at their churches.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 1:44 AM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 2:27 AM nwr has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15085
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 3 of 253 (238790)
08-31-2005 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
08-31-2005 1:44 AM


There are a lot of questions to be raised.

Why should we misinform children and hurt their education ? DO the people polled even realise that this is what they are asking for ?

What "factual" arguments belong in school classes and why ? Schools are for teaching the basic underpinnings of a subject, not for discussing every fringe idea.

If creationism and ID are so short of money why do they have so much to spend on PR activities ?

Why say that "by law, evolution is the only theory taught" when you know that there is no law mandating that evolution alone should be taught. Evolution succeeded on its scientific merits and it is currently the only theory that DESERVES to be taught. If ID and creationism have scientific merit why are they trying to use political means to circumvent the scientific process ?

And why not consider the possibility that Creationism and ID are the foreces they are in the US because of the PR and propaganda campaing of crewationist organisations and churches ? In other societies where the same information and education is available creationism and ID have far less of a hold.

This message has been edited by PaulK, 08-31-2005 02:26 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 1:44 AM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 2:39 AM PaulK has responded

    
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3072 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 4 of 253 (238791)
08-31-2005 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by nwr
08-31-2005 2:04 AM


rhetoric like a brick wall
This is a manufactured controversy.

Sometimes you gotta take a step back and take stock of things. I don't believe 2/3rds of Americans are mere dupes. Sorry, but the old there is no issue isn't holding.

You want to say it's a manufactured controversy, fine, but it's over in terms of public opinion. The evolutionists lost.

It's only going to exacerbate matters if evos try to stop the will of the public being expressed in "their own schools."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 08-31-2005 2:04 AM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Nuggin, posted 08-31-2005 3:06 AM randman has not yet responded
 Message 14 by mark24, posted 08-31-2005 3:43 AM randman has not yet responded
 Message 23 by Yaro, posted 08-31-2005 6:48 AM randman has not yet responded
 Message 26 by nwr, posted 08-31-2005 8:09 AM randman has not yet responded
 Message 46 by Omnivorous, posted 08-31-2005 6:05 PM randman has responded
 Message 181 by Brad McFall, posted 10-04-2005 7:07 PM randman has responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3072 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 5 of 253 (238795)
08-31-2005 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
08-31-2005 2:24 AM


answers
Why should we misinform children and hurt their education ? DO the people polled even realise that this is what they are asking for ?

So allowing an alternative theory or criticisms of ToE to be presented is "misinforming them"? It just amazes me that you can say that with a straight face. Education is about presenting data and arguments, teaching kids to think for themselves, not indoctrination. Teaching more views on the topic is not misinformning them, but educating them more fully to the topic at hand.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 08-31-2005 2:24 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 08-31-2005 2:51 AM randman has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15085
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 6 of 253 (238798)
08-31-2005 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by randman
08-31-2005 2:39 AM


Re: answers
Pretending that ID or creationism offered a serious scientific challenge to evolution would be misinforming the children.

As I say, science education is for dealing with the basics, not for promoting fringe ideas that happen to be popular with the general public.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 2:39 AM randman has not yet responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 7 of 253 (238803)
08-31-2005 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by randman
08-31-2005 2:27 AM


Re: rhetoric like a brick wall
You want to say it's a manufactured controversy, fine, but it's over in terms of public opinion. The evolutionists lost.

He's right. Just like science lost the debate about the Earth being round instead of flat, and that the universe doesn't revolve around the Earth, and any number of other issues where science has been on the side of data no matter what "public opinion" wants to believe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 2:27 AM randman has not yet responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 8 of 253 (238806)
08-31-2005 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
08-31-2005 1:44 AM


Creation in School
Let me ask you this Randman,

Would you have them teach Biblical Creation?

Would they also teach Navajo Creationism? Cherokee? Tibetan? Hindu? Babylonian? Egyptian?

What's the criteria for teaching these theories? Clearly, it's not based on the data.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 1:44 AM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 3:25 AM Nuggin has responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 9 of 253 (238809)
08-31-2005 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
08-31-2005 1:44 AM


Sampling rates
I read the article you linked.

There's sample pool on the E v C question was 2000 people. That's just silly small. 40 people per state dictating education - come on. And where were these people located, which states? Cities vs rural? Are these people educated vs uneducated? Employed vs home to answer the phone when they survey taker called?

The article also didn't give an example of the questions used.

The wording of the question can have serious effects on the outcome of the survey for example:

"Do you think that creationist beliefs should be taught in the science classroom?"

versus

"Do you think that alternative theories of evolution should be given equal time in the classroom?"

Essentially the same question, but I'd expect different numbers from either one.

I think the numbers in the survey are highly suspect, but even if the survey was completely fair, and the numbers one hundred percent accurate, I'd still object to this.

Do you want Prayer Healing taught in Medical school? If you have a heart attack, which doctor do you want to see?

Should we have David Blane come teach teleportation and levitation in physics class? Lots of people believe he can do that?

Science is science. It adheres to a method through which it strives to explain observations. It is reviewable, and peer tested.

Creationism is not a science. There is no mechanism for peer testing. There's no observable experimentation. It doesn't belong in the classroom.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 1:44 AM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 3:23 AM Nuggin has responded

    
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3072 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 10 of 253 (238812)
08-31-2005 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Nuggin
08-31-2005 3:21 AM


Re: Sampling rates
Yea, I always knew the NYTs was a creationist hotbed willing to print creationist garbage. No credibility whatsoever.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Nuggin, posted 08-31-2005 3:21 AM Nuggin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Nuggin, posted 08-31-2005 3:32 AM randman has not yet responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3072 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 11 of 253 (238813)
08-31-2005 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Nuggin
08-31-2005 3:08 AM


Re: Creation in School
Personally, I'd just like them to teach all the facts, data, and arguments not supportive of ToE, and force the correction of the vast overstatements used to indoctrinate kids into accepting ToE.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Nuggin, posted 08-31-2005 3:08 AM Nuggin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Nuggin, posted 08-31-2005 3:39 AM randman has not yet responded
 Message 16 by Silent H, posted 08-31-2005 4:29 AM randman has not yet responded

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 12 of 253 (238816)
08-31-2005 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by randman
08-31-2005 3:23 AM


Re: Sampling rates
Yea, I always knew the NYTs was a creationist hotbed willing to print creationist garbage. No credibility whatsoever.

Well, the newspaper was reporting on the story. They weren't saying that the poll was good or bad, just that it was. That's their job.

I don't have any doubt that the information in the article is correct. I just doubt that the method of obtaining the information used by the pollers (not the NYT's writers btw) was sufficient for their claims that it represented the true feelings of the public as a whole.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 3:23 AM randman has not yet responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 13 of 253 (238817)
08-31-2005 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by randman
08-31-2005 3:25 AM


Re: Creation in School
Personally, I'd just like them to teach all the facts, data, and arguments not supportive of ToE,

The problem is this. There are arguments not supportive of ToE, you've brought many of them up.

There are, however, no facts or data to support those arguments.

When asked to present the facts or data, the response is always - "Trust in God" or "The Devil is trying to trick you", etc.

If you want to jump up and down and say, "Show me proof." Then discount anything we suggest.

Time to turn it around.

Show us proof.

Prove, using the data, that no species ever changed.

Prove, using the data, that there was a Great Flood, and that magically killed only the dinosaurs first, including the aquatic ones, before moving on to other life forms.

Prove, using the data, that in 4000 years, every single race on Earth descended from the incestuous sexual relations of Noah and his offspring, that the spread rapidly across the world, completely forgot their history, culture, religion, language and (without changing) became the Chinese, the Africans, the Meso-Americans, Aboriginies, Inuit, etc.

You want to play in our playground, you have to play by our rules.

We aren't going around asking there to be laws mandating that we be allowed to teach Evolution in your Temples.

This message has been edited by Nuggin, 08-31-2005 03:41 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 3:25 AM randman has not yet responded

    
mark24
Member (Idle past 3368 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 14 of 253 (238820)
08-31-2005 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by randman
08-31-2005 2:27 AM


Re: rhetoric like a brick wall
randman,

I don't believe 2/3rds of Americans are mere dupes.

I do.

IMO, present the factual arguments. Education is not a bad thing. If ToE is so superiour to creationism and ID, then it will be apparent, and if not, then truth is served.

The "truth" has already been served.

The earth is ~4.5 billion years old, not 6,000. As per the EVIDENCE.

Noah's flood not only lacks global evidence, but there is contradsictory evidence too.

Evolution has many lines of multidisciplinary evidence, creation has none.

That's why 2/3rds of the US are dupes, if your figures are to be believed. They're stupid enough to ignore the fact that they have no evidence in their favour, falsifying evidence against them, & their opponents have evidence in support of their position, & they STILL want creationism taught.

It's religion, not science. Teach it by all means, but 2/3rds of Americans are going to have to go to sunday school.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 2:27 AM randman has not yet responded

    
Lammy
Member
Posts: 3610
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 15 of 253 (238821)
08-31-2005 3:49 AM


Pardon me for interrupting, but doesn't this topic belong in the Ed and crea/evo forum?
Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by randman, posted 09-01-2005 2:20 PM Lammy has not yet responded
 Message 113 by randman, posted 09-01-2005 2:20 PM Lammy has not yet responded

    
1
23456
...
17NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019