New Eyes on Stars

I guess it's an Arizona thing. Go to church, go to brunch.You do know what "brunch" is, yes?

Well AZPaul3, I know what it means over here.
It's a congregation of yuppies having champagnes at an inner city cocktail bar after they've finally dragged themselves out of bed. Usually well after 11am. They use it as a primer for the rest of the day.

To LucyTheApe,This thread is about an amazing new eye on the sky. Maybe you could take the discussion of things you disparage and how money could better be spent to a thread where they would be on-topic.To everyone else:I've read a couple articles about this telescope, but beyond mentioning supernova they were both very vague about what additional opportunities it opens up, and what questions it is best suited for investigating. I'm curious whether its power might be applied to any of the big problems of cosmology, like dark matter, dark energy, and the structure of the cosmos.--Percy

quote:

---

The LBT will play a major role in solving these problems, which in essence address the questions of how the material content of the universe evolved from the postulated uniform distribution of the "hot big bang" to the current distribution of galaxies, stars and planets of composition capable of supporting life. The stage was set at such early epochs that the important processes are beyond the reach of current telescopes. In its wide field mode the LBT will permit the identification of galaxies in the process of formation and its multifiber spectroscopy mode will allow analysis of their composition and radial motion. The development of the "cluster and void" distribution of present day galaxies can then be documented and will in turn provide insight into the nature of the "missing matter" which determines this evolution through its gravitational effects. The results may have important implications for particle physics as well as cosmology. The high spatial resolution capability will permit study of galaxy morphology and hence of the way galaxies form and the role of rotation in the process. This capability will also permit study of the structure of galaxy nuclei and the giant black holes which seem to power the quasars and radio sources.

---

here

Except for replacing the yuppies (which are not allowed in Arizona) with "regular folks" and substituting coffee (for Mom and Dad) and coke (for the kids) and placing it in a local restaurant after church well after 11 am and, yes, we are speaking of exactly the same social phenomenon, sorta.

I just knew you were going to say something like that. Call it a hunch.Regardless of whether you paid for your PC or not the point is that someone did. Thus, opportunity cost is invoked. Whenever you spend money on one thing, you lose the ability to spend it on something else. We all make these kinds of decisions every day, just at a smaller scale.If you are really concerned about money being wasted, you might want to find a more appropriate target, such as the billions spent on the Iraq war, or the countless millions frittered away by ordinary folks on junk food and celebrity magazines.If the LBT (not to be confused with the BLT) can provide new clues about the whole "missing matter" mystery, I would suggest that it is worth every penny. This question is fundamental to understanding the cosmos and the physical laws that govern it.I'm actually pretty excited about the new generation of telescopes, especially some of the orbital ones. Should astronomers find an Earth-like planet with signs of life, would that still be a waste of money?

---

Mutate and Survive

I'm always on the lookout for programming talent for software development for the website.--Percy

I noticed from a previous topic you need help Percy. And I feel obliged to help. I didn't put my hand up because I knew I would be over committing.I'm doing post grad study this year and with the programming stuff I'm already committed to, it just wouldn't work.Come November when study is finished and I'm back in the bush, I promise I'll let you know I've got time to help out. I know that's a long way off, I'm sorry, but I'm sure there will still be work to do then.

If they find life that would be money well spent, as long as the aliens don't catch on and come here and wipe us out. Then that would be a bad investment.But I'm interested Granny, do you think that we will find life elsewhere in the universe? I mean physical life (as opposed to the spiritual kind) on some other planet.

I'm putting my money on little green men.

It's generally not worthwhile to cross interstellar distances to commit genocide. The nergy and time investment required to travel interstellar distances is far greater than anything that can be gained from a life-supporting planet. Gas giants and stars themselves are more easily and plentifully harvested for energy, asteroids are far easier for mining operations...despite science fiction, there really isn't much of a reason for Independence Day or the like.Unless, of course, the aliens have some sort of religious motivation to "kill all of the unbelievers" or something. What we do in searching for life is just listening. Any signals we send out would take far too long to reach an intelligent form of life to be useful in the search. If aliens "hear" us, it will more likely be television/radio broadcasts - astronomy is not required for "them" to find us. Difficult question to answer. Even if life exists on another world, the real question is whether we would recognize it as life. All life on Earth has a few general characteristics in common, but that doesn't mean alien life has to evolve around similar lines.But as a pure statistical guess as to whether we'll find life...Earth doesn't seem to be all that special. Saturn's moon Titan is very similar to what we currently believe Earth was like before life, except that Titan is far enough away from the Sun that liquid water is impossible on the surface. A few of Jupiter's moons also have potential, including one that's basically a gigantic frozen-crusted ocean with the water beneath the icy crust heated to a liquid by the tidal foces and radiation of Jupiter.That means several of the bodies in our one solar system have decent potential to support life of some kind.When you run the numbers of how many galaxies there are in the Universe, and how many stars in each galaxy, and how many stars may have terrestrial planets or moons, and how many of those might be of the right (apparently relatively common) chemical composition to allow for the beginnings of life, and how many of those might be close enough to their star or another source of heat to have liquid water...even if the percentage of such bodies is incredibly small, less than 1% of 1% of 1%, we'd still have billions or more planets capable of supporting life.But again, whether we'd find t, let alone recognize it, is another question entirely. Considering we don't have evidence of spiritual "life" anywhere, including right here, I'm pretty sure that was a given.Though the implication that we might find some sort of "ghost planet" is highly amusing.

Ummmm? What is spiritual life, may I ask? Edited by bluegenes, : typo

Rahvin writes

quote:

---

It's generally not worthwhile to cross interstellar distances to commit genocide. The nergy and time investment required to travel interstellar distances is far greater than anything that can be gained from a life-supporting planet. Gas giants and stars themselves are more easily and plentifully harvested for energy, asteroids are far easier for mining operations...despite science fiction, there really isn't much of a reason for Independence Day or the like.

---

All you have to do is look at our own history to see why an alien race would come and kick our asses. Especially with the invention of farming, a small land area could potentially support a huge population. Yet, ancient civilizations constantly went for each other's throats. In fact, I can't think of a single war both in ancient times and modern times that were fought because of lack of resources.Personally, I think the threat of alien invasion is a very real threat. Not only that, from the example of colonization of the Americas by European, our own extinction is a real possibility.

quote:

---

Considering we don't have evidence of spiritual "life" anywhere, including right here, I'm pretty sure that was a given.

---

Could you explain to me what spiritual life is? I'm having trouble understanding this concept.

As Rahvin has noted, telescopes are passive devices. They don't send out signals, only receive them. If you are worried about this, I can only suggest that you lobby to end all television and radio signals. Like everyone else, I'm a little perplexed as to what "spiritual life" might be, but I am optimistic about the chances of astronomers finding evidence for extraterrestrial life within the next few decades. There are several telescopes, on Earth and in orbit, that are looking for Earth-like planets (although I don't think that the LBT is one of them, it's priorities lie elsewhere). I think it's only a matter of time until the search methods are refined enough to detect these planets and use spectroscopy to look for signs of life.If you are talking about intelligent life though, that's anybody's guess. I would be pleased enough if they found algae.

---

Mutate and Survive

Interstellar warfare is not the same as Earth-bound territorial disputes. There's not just a lot of extra room - there's a lot of extra room. So much that it's extremely cost-prohibitive to engage in such warfare for silly reasons. Not just fuel and war materials, but also time. It will take many, many years, likely centuries or more, for any invasion force to reach us at even a reasonable fraction of c. And we'll be able to see them coming long before they get here if they make any kind of radio broadcast (long meaning likely years in advance). Because of the incredibly long timescales involved, it becomes feasible for a defending species to not only prepare a defense, but also to launch countermeasures in the form of missiles or simply small asteroids with rocket engines attached to intercept the invading fleet while the soldiers are still on board.It's always possible for the invading force to start out with their own bombardment of asteroids from lightyears away...but again, we're talking about a gigantic investment in terms of energy and time. And the defending force can notice the thermal signature years before the attack reaches the target, possibly giving ample time to devise a sufficient countermeasure.Essentially, an interstellar invasion would be the height of stupidity. It's crazy high-risk, takes a massive investment in energy and material and manpower resources, and gains you absolutely nothing. Normal war is stupid enough. Interstellar war is the mark of a true moron.