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Author Topic:   Man raised back to life in Jesus' name
Trixie
Member (Idle past 1900 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 77 of 300 (274480)
12-31-2005 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
12-31-2005 3:08 PM


Re: Health
That reasoning would suggest that newborn babies are up shit creak without a paddle. I have trouble reconciling that view with the God of Love.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 3:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 7:09 PM Trixie has responded

Trixie
Member (Idle past 1900 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 79 of 300 (274497)
12-31-2005 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
12-31-2005 7:09 PM


Re: Health
No, I said I had trouble with the reasoning you put forward and the view you expressed.

The message of Jesus was that of a loving Father, that doesn't gel with what you're saying. I thought the whole point of the life and teachings and sacrifice of Jesus was that there was a new covenant with God. How loving is a Father who holds his children responsible for the sins of others a long time ago? How loving is a Father who makes these children pay for the sins of others by illness and suffering and death?

This paints a very different picture of God to the one that Jesus painted. So, who should I, as a Christian, believe? Shall I believe Jesus who I believe IS the Son of God and Saviour, or should I believe Faith on the internet?

My task is made easier for me in that I don't believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. I believe that certain writers may have been inspired by God, but I don't believe that every word is God-inspired. To believe that every word is God-inspired leads only to the conclusion that God knew very little about how His people interacted with the planet around them. We have to believe that He knew nothing about bacteria and viruses that cause disease. We have to ascribe to Him the same primitive level of knowledge that the people had at that time. If God's knowledge only increases as man finds things out, does that mean that God only learns things from our endeavours?

Or we can consider that the messages in the Bible were put in such a way as to explain things to His people in ways that they could cope with, in ways that were relevant to their way of life.

Another question that this raises for me is, if disease is the payment for sin, are Christians then going against God's will in praying for healing? Surely if God has decided that the punishment is appropriate, who are we to question this? And wouldn't we be committing terrible sins by treating these sin-induced infections with antibiotics etc? If these diseases are the punishment of a righteous God on sinners, surely we are no better than helpers of Satan when we treat and care for these sinners and mitigate or ven cure the punishment that God has sent?

Obviously I can't agree with any of that. Compassion, sympathy, empathy, charity are at the core of the Christian message, the message of Jesus Christ. Why would Jesus advocate this if it nullifies God's punishments?

As Jar is so fond of saying, the Bible is the map, not the territory. I don't have faith in the Bible because it is not God, I don't worship the Bible because it is not God, I have no other God but the God that I know through Jesus and through my relationship with him. I can't have a spiritual relationship with ink on paper.

As an aside, what if a new edition of the Bible appears with a typo? Is the typo God-inspired and if not, why not?

Happy New Year to you and yours, keep safe!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 7:09 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 8:12 PM Trixie has responded
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 01-01-2006 10:57 AM Trixie has responded

Trixie
Member (Idle past 1900 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 81 of 300 (274507)
12-31-2005 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
12-31-2005 8:12 PM


Re: Health
Your post says the following

There's another place Jesus said that:
Jhn 5:12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up your bed, and walk? Jhn 5:13 And he that was healed knew not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in [that] place. Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, you are made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.

Also, the Book of Proverbs is full of admonitions of sickness as a result of sin, and improved health is promised for obedience.

Can you point me to the Chapter nad verso of the Bible that you were quoting here

Also, the Book of Proverbs is full of admonitions of sickness as a result of sin, and improved health is promised for obedience.

If this is not your view of what the Bible says, then why did you write it? Of course I am making the wild assumption that the quotes you provided were in some way made to support your viewpoint. If they are diametrically opposed to your viewpoint, maybe you should put a disclaimer on them.

Your post raised a number of questions for me and I tried to explain my position to you so that you could understand where I was coming from. I thought this might make it easier for you to reply to the specific points I made.

I would appreciate an answer to post 79


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 8:12 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 9:33 PM Trixie has not yet responded

Trixie
Member (Idle past 1900 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 92 of 300 (274695)
01-01-2006 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
01-01-2006 10:57 AM


Re: Health
Hi Faith, thanks for the reply.
Firstly can I say that when I said
If these diseases are the punishment of a righteous God on sinners, surely we are no better than helpers of Satan when we treat and care for these sinners and mitigate or ven cure the punishment that God has sent?

I was only following on the logic which you had presented. You have presented biblical quotes to support the idea that disease is caused by sin. That then leads to the question "Does God approve of us trying to mitigate His punishment?" Can you explain why this is nonsense?

In response to me stating

Obviously I can't agree with any of that. Compassion, sympathy, empathy, charity are at the core of the Christian message, the message of Jesus Christ. Why would Jesus advocate this if it nullifies God's punishments? As Jar is so fond of saying, the Bible is the map, not the territory. I don't have faith in the Bible because it is not God, I don't worship the Bible because it is not God, I have no other God but the God that I know through Jesus and through my relationship with him. I can't have a spiritual relationship with ink on paper.

you said

Straw man. I've never said anything to justify such a notion. The problem is that there is no other source of information about the nature of God. If you don't rely on the Bible's information you are subject to making up your own God and worshiping an idol of your own invention.

I wasn't suggesting that you had said any of this - I was trying to exlain where I was coming from, but what you said has raised another question. If the Bible is to be relied on for information on God and it provides two diametrically opposed pictures of Him, how do we decide what picture is correct? The God of the OT and the God of the NT appear like two different entities, or one entity with a split personality, unless you consider what the purpose of Jesus was. Jesus explained to us what this purpose was, the new covenant. So the relationship between God and man was started anew.

I am relying on the Bible's information just as much as you are, I'm not making up my own God, but I'm following the teachings of Jesus on God as best I can. If you consider that this leaves me worshipping an idol, I can assure you it isn't one of my own making, but one made by Jesus Christ.

Sorry if this is a bit garbled, I'm short of time and brain power. New Year in Scotland can be a bit overwhelming LOL

This message has been edited by Trixie, 01-01-2006 03:32 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 01-01-2006 10:57 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 01-02-2006 4:04 AM Trixie has not yet responded
 Message 120 by randman, posted 01-03-2006 12:50 AM Trixie has not yet responded

Trixie
Member (Idle past 1900 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 115 of 300 (275043)
01-02-2006 3:55 PM


Admin, please read
Faith says
Trixie's first retort to my post was a complaint about "my reasoning" when all I had done was quote the Bible.

It was not a "retort" or a "complaint", but a two sentence comment.

Faith also says

You perfectly well know that the Bible is full of God's will to cure the sick, so what kind of game are you playing anyway?

I'm not actually playing any game at all. I'm attempting to discuss the issue.

Faith says

Please excuse me if I say that I can't think of this question as anything but absurd, disingenuous, dishonest, manipulative.

It was an honest question, repeated because the first answer I got was

Oh nonsense

Faith says

You're playing games

Nope, I'm simply trying to discuss the issues.

To my statement

I wasn't suggesting that you had said any of this - I was trying to exlain where I was coming from

Faith replies

BS. You didn't need to SAY it. You were implying what jar always says, that I "worship ink on paper" and that I disregard the Bible's message of compassion. And "where you are coming from" seems to be this absurd idea that I personally somehow disregard the message of compassion in the Bible simply because I gave some evidence for the other topic of how the Bible says that disease is related to sin.

No, not bullshit, I was honestly trying to explain where I was coming from in my faith. I never stated that Faith worships ink on paper, I stated that I don't. I was implying nothing, again I was trying to explain where I was coming from.

Faith says to Percy

Trixie's accusation that because I quote the Bible on one topic means I am therefore ignoring another Biblical theme is incredibly absurd and annoying. How on earth could anyone read the Bible and not notice the abundance of teachings on healing? Why is she accusing me of this irrelevant side issue of this whole other Biblical theme when the topic is the relation of disease to sin and all I've done is provide a citation to this topic?

I haven't made any accusations, I have asked questions. If Faith chooses to see these questions as accusations that's her problem, not mine.

Faith says to Percy

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you find my answer contradictory but her insinuating irrelevant post admirable.

"Insinuating and irrelevant post"...... yet above Faith stated

when the topic is the relation of disease to sin and all I've done is provide a citation to this topic?

and all I've done is try to explain my position on disease and sin. Apparently Faith's opinions of disease and sin are on topic, but mine aren't. Figures.

Faith says to Percy

Right, by targeting me rather than her.

What have I actually done? Oh I get it, I actually had the temerity to post my opinion on a debate site.

To Faith since Percy has requested that this remain a civil discussion and you have managed to turn it into a rather uncivil one, I will withdraw from this thread, leaving you to expound on my "dishonest questions" without challenge. I don't enjoy discussions with people who see accusations in genuine questions and then reply insultingly.

Admin, if we can't even ask honest questions and explain our positions, how the hell are we supposed to post any bloody messages? If we can't explain a differing position to someone, are we just supposed to agree with everything they say, without question, for fear of them throwing their teddy out of the pram? You won't get much debate happening if this is the case.


Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 01-02-2006 3:56 PM Trixie has not yet responded
 Message 122 by AdminRandman, posted 01-03-2006 12:59 AM Trixie has not yet responded

Trixie
Member (Idle past 1900 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 140 of 300 (275416)
01-03-2006 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by crashfrog
01-03-2006 4:13 PM


Re: a baby healed of Hepatitis C
Hi Crash

I've had a look at the link provided by randman and it states exactly what he quoted. It also omits any description of the diagnostic test which had been used when the child was 12 months old, ie whether it was antibody or virus detection.

From this site

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00055154.htm

I got the following snippet of information about Hepatitis C antibodies.
Passively acquired maternal antibody might persist for months, but probably not for greater than 12 months.

A Google search turns up a number of estimates for the persistence of maternal antibody from approximately 10 months to 18 months.

Randman's quote states that a post "healing" test failed to detect any virus, however what we actually need is confirmation that the test prior to healing showed virus present, rather than antibodies to the virus. Without that, the story is just describing exactly what we know passively aquired maternal antibodies do without miraculous intervention.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by crashfrog, posted 01-03-2006 4:13 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by lfen, posted 01-03-2006 5:14 PM Trixie has not yet responded

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