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Author Topic:   Man raised back to life in Jesus' name
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 144 of 300 (276165)
01-05-2006 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by randman
01-05-2006 5:44 PM


the Lord works in mysterious periodontic ways
hey randman-
A quick question: This whole "supernatural gold dentistry" angle seems more than strange to me. Is there some significance to the gold or the teeth?
Here's why, on face value, I have trouble accepting gold-filling miracles:
1. Gold-fillings are routinely created by humans in very non-miraculous ways.
2. The preoccupation with gold seems far too materialistic to be divine.
I mean, if someone suggested that they woke up one day with their hair supernaturally dyed blond, or that a twenty-dollar bill supernaturally appeared in their coat pocket, wouldn't you be far more skeptical than if the miracle was, say, blood flowing from a statue?
Just asking for your thoughts here - not trying to be argumentative.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by randman, posted 01-05-2006 5:44 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by randman, posted 01-05-2006 6:03 PM pink sasquatch has replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 146 of 300 (276185)
01-05-2006 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by randman
01-05-2006 6:03 PM


Re: the Lord works in mysterious periodontic ways
Thanks for your thoughts - I wasn't asking to be convinced, by the way.
I think miracles are interesting things, especially when they are rather ordinary things. These things may simply be improbable or misunderstood events - maybe the engine always had oil in it, but an odd airpocket made it seem as though none was in it on previous inspection (don't feel the need to defend your miracle - I'm just throwing out a quick skeptic's viewpoint). It would be interesting to see how some religious leaderships investigate miracles (the Catholic Church does so, no?)
From a skeptic's point of view, a miracle should be an impossible event, not an improbable one.
I find defining things as miraculous events particularly odd when they are miraculous for some but not for others. In the recent mine tragedy in West Virginia, the fact that one person of thirteen survived has been repeatedly referred to as a miracle. Okay, but what about the other twelve guys? Similar statements were made after the 9/11 attacks, as in, "God saved me when I missed my train and didn't get to work in time at the WTC." Okay, what about the other several thousand people?
I fear this is going off-topic, and I believe there is a "miracles" thread around here if there is any further interest.

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 Message 145 by randman, posted 01-05-2006 6:03 PM randman has not replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 159 of 300 (276771)
01-07-2006 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 5:22 PM


hypotheses and the supernatural
However, in the case of the example of the limbs regrowing, it seems as though some things can be checked.
I agree that such could be checked, but a negative result (i.e. no indication of bone regrowth) wouldn't necessarily be definitive, because there is no way to predict how a supernatural force would replace lost limbs.
This is one reason science doesn't examine the supernatural - no predictions can be made about it, and therefore no hypotheses can be tested.
I have never heard of an alleged miracle that could not be explained by science to have been the result of naturalistic causes; similarly, every naturalistic cause could be explained by the faithful as being the result of divine intervention.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 5:22 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 9:14 PM pink sasquatch has replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 181 of 300 (276913)
01-07-2006 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 9:14 PM


Re: hypotheses and the supernatural
I disagree.
Based on the information we have today, I think that a lack of any indication of bone restructuring/growth would strongly indicate a lack of a miracle.
There is a fallacy in there. Let me rewrite your line a bit to point it out:
Based on the natural information we have today, I think that a lack of any indication of natural bone restructuring/growth would strongly indicate a lack of a supernatural miracle.
You are trying to use a naturalistic hypothesis to make predictions about a supernatural force. Simply not possible. You don't even know what the supernatural force is, let alone how it would act, or what evidence it would leave behind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 9:14 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:19 PM pink sasquatch has replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 182 of 300 (276916)
01-07-2006 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 10:14 PM


why would the soul require arms or legs?
Masturbation and jogging.

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 Message 168 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 10:14 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:23 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 187 of 300 (276934)
01-07-2006 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 11:19 PM


Re: hypotheses and the supernatural
So you're using this excuse as a reason not to look at all then?
Me? Yeah, I'm getting there, anyway...
There are always evidence-based naturalistic explanations for supernatural claims.
There are always faith-based supernatural explanations for naturalistic claims.
To some extent, why bother? (Except perhaps for fun and profit...)
Furthermore, your definition of "supernatural" seems to be linked to the idea of "impossible".
Yep. Because something impossible would break the cycle I note in bold just above.
Now, for example, if one did check a report for restored limbs, and one did actually find the bone-structure exactly as I noted before, would that be considered an evidence that something "supernatural" occured?
First, since noone has ever analyzed a regenerated human limb before, it would be difficult to know what the data meant. (Though if there was an opportunity to analyze several of these alleged regeneration cases it would get more interesting.)
Second, better documentation would need to exist that the limbs were gone at some point than "I know this person who know this really smart person who totally believes that this village is convinced this guy's legs regrew!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:19 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:40 PM pink sasquatch has replied
 Message 202 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 12:22 AM pink sasquatch has replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 194 of 300 (276952)
01-07-2006 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 11:40 PM


reg ref
actually, children under five can and do regrow lost body parts.
Reference, please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:40 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:59 PM pink sasquatch has replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 197 of 300 (276968)
01-08-2006 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 11:59 PM


Re: reg ref
oh geeze yourself.
There is a huge difference between a digit regenerating (as you claimed) and the utmost tip of the finger regenerating.
There is an even bigger difference between regeneration of entire legs and feet and that of the tip of a finger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:59 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 214 of 300 (277031)
01-08-2006 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-08-2006 12:22 AM


Re: hypotheses and the supernatural
This has already been covered in the text provided by schrafinator.
Yep. My summary was pretty spot-on, if you ask me.
If you dismiss it out of hand without investigating it further, then you are not actually engaging in the scientific method at all.
Correct.
You're just blowing it off because your mind's already made up.
Don't confuse my apathy with biased scientific assumption.
My only "assumption" is that any miracle will have both a natural and a supernatural explanation, and individuals will choose which one to believe based on their own worldview.
But, since this is a medical expert who happens to be your best friend, it seems as though you should investigate it further.
It doesn't take a medical expert to meet a man who claimed to once have no legs, and see that he does indeed now have legs.
In fact, I have no interest at all in continuing to discuss this hypothetical situation.
As far as I can tell, these studies seem to be preliminary evidence that there is a faith-based supernatural* explanation for a supernatural* claim.
I think it was just in 2004(?) that a review was done of the intercessory prayer studies, and several of them were shown to used fabricated / unethically manipulated data to demonstrate the "power of prayer."
However, it has been accepted that patient condition improves when the patient knows they are being prayed for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 12:22 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 3:06 AM pink sasquatch has not replied

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