Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-19-2019 8:53 PM
30 online now:
Dredge, DrJones*, JonF, kjsimons, Tanypteryx, Theodoric (6 members, 24 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 854,169 Year: 9,205/19,786 Month: 1,627/2,119 Week: 387/576 Day: 62/128 Hour: 2/5


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1234
5
67
...
20NextFF
Author Topic:   Man raised back to life in Jesus' name
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2094 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 61 of 300 (273379)
12-27-2005 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Coragyps
12-27-2005 9:16 PM


Re: Before You Blame God............
no. i made it to hit crawford, texas but i've got really bad depth perception. this also explains my taste in movies and friends. or perhaps the taste of my friends in friends :p
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Coragyps, posted 12-27-2005 9:16 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 62 of 300 (273778)
12-29-2005 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by randman
12-26-2005 7:37 PM


Re: prove it
quote:
Let me add a small miracle but which would be hard to fake. I had a friend that had fillings in his teeth go up for prayer in a healing meeting and when he came back to his seat the fillings were gone and he had tooth where the fillings were.
I know a guy staying at my brother-in-laws that went up for prayer with the older darker colored fillings come back with gold fillings. I was not at the meeting, but looked at the fillings myself as we were all staying at the same house. They were also intricate drawings on the gold.

Now, those are not the most important miracles, but they certainly were not faked. When the anointing and presence of God are involved, miraculous things can happen.


Wow.

All I can say is wow.

You talk about how incredibly powerful and amazing your so-called omnicient, all-powerful god is and this is what he decides to do as miracles?

He gives someone gold fillings?????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Oh, man, that is the best laugh I've had in a while.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by randman, posted 12-26-2005 7:37 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by randman, posted 12-29-2005 12:33 PM nator has responded
 Message 69 by Brian, posted 12-30-2005 6:45 PM nator has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 63 of 300 (273780)
12-29-2005 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
12-26-2005 10:53 PM


Re: Before You Blame God............
Fillings? God spends his time with fillings while children starve and people die from war and disease?

quote:
You don't get if you don't ask, or if you ask in unbelief, et al. If you obey god, assuming the responsibilities of Christianity and ask in faith believing, you may receive.

So....

that means that true Fundamentalist Christians should have ended war, famine, and disease within their own communities, correct?

quote:
Are you personally praying for and doing something to aleviate the starving children of the world and the oppessed, et al?

The point is, if God answered the ferverent prayers of believers, war, famine, and disease should have ended long ago.

That is, if god 1) answers prayer, and 2) is merciful, and 3) has the power to do so.

quote:
Then too, have you ever considered why some nations and cultures have so much of this starvation and suffering?

You mean like the fundamentalist Christian culture in poor, impoverished, poorly-educated Alabama?

quote:
Could it be that their ideologies have something to do with the poverty and suffering they are experiencing?

Sure. They would rather read the Bible than educate their citizens.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 12-26-2005 10:53 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3065 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 64 of 300 (273831)
12-29-2005 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by nator
12-29-2005 9:04 AM


Re: prove it
Shraf, you don't like the way God does things. Talk with him about it.

The fact is if you look in the Bible and today, there are certain types of meetings with anointing levels high enough and faith and many things, where miraculous healings occur.

Jesus walked in that anointing from the time he went on his 40-day fast until the end of his ministry, but he did not end world suffering, hunger, all disease, etc,...

If you are present, believing, and seeking a miraculous healing when the power of the Lord is present to heal, you might could receive just about any healing. So at the meetings I am referring to, many things like cancer, etc,...were healed, but I mentioned the teeth because I think that would be hard to fake and might be more convincing to a skeptic, but your response is one reason I have learned not to waste time trying to prove such miracles. Thousands upon thousands occur every single year in Christian assemblies all over the world. You choose not to believe, and choose to say hateful things about the Lord who does those healings. That's your perogative, but it does not help you to hold such a stance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by nator, posted 12-29-2005 9:04 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by nator, posted 12-30-2005 8:59 AM randman has not yet responded
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 12-30-2005 1:59 PM randman has not yet responded
 Message 68 by crashfrog, posted 12-30-2005 2:00 PM randman has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 65 of 300 (274125)
12-30-2005 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by randman
12-29-2005 12:33 PM


Re: prove it
quote:
Shraf, you don't like the way God does things. Talk with him about it.

It has nothing to do with "like" or not.

It's just hilarious that

1) You are so gullible to believe these people's claims, and

2) That you have portrayed the all-powerful diety you worship as some sort of Divine Dentist.

That is just too funny.

quote:
The fact is if you look in the Bible and today, there are certain types of meetings with anointing levels high enough and faith and many things, where miraculous healings occur.

Yeah, and gold fillings get implanted.

LOL!!!

quote:
If you are present, believing, and seeking a miraculous healing when the power of the Lord is present to heal, you might could receive just about any healing.

...or you might not.

Right?

Do you have any stats on the rate of "healings"? Has any kind of real recording of data been done? Has any statistical analysis shown a greater rate of healing that can be attributed to these meetings?

Or, is it going to be more of the "I wasn't there, but my friend told me..." kinds of stories?

So far, that's all you've presented. Feel free to swallow those stories if it helps you get through the day, but without some kind of real evidence, no rational person has any obligation to just take your word for things.

quote:
So at the meetings I am referring to, many things like cancer, etc,...were healed,

Prove it.

quote:
but I mentioned the teeth because I think that would be hard to fake and might be more convincing to a skeptic,

Oh, yes, observed under the proper controls, such a occurence would be very impressive and would be quite convincing.

To be blunt, however, given my past experience with your standards of "evidence", I am not at all inclined to take your word as reliable.

There were no controls in place, nor was there an disinterested observer, correct? All who were present were heavily biased in favor of believing in miracles, right?

quote:
but your response is one reason I have learned not to waste time trying to prove such miracles.

Hey, I never said the actions of your Divine Dentist weren't miracles.

I just don't have any reason to believe that they were unless you cough up some quality evidence that was gathered under some reasonable controls. You want people to believe your hearsay as fact and then you get bent out of shape and put upon when they don't.

If a little giggling, skepticism, and questioning discourages you so completely then you really are WAY too thin-skinned to think or act scientifically.

quote:
Thousands upon thousands occur every single year in Christian assemblies all over the world.

Detailed, specific evidence please. Details, such as names, dates, doctor's reports, statistical analysis of the healing rates of these groups compared to the general population, rates of spontaneous cures, verification that these people were really sick, etc.

quote:
You choose not to believe,

I choose to require verification and evidence before accepting claims.

I am not as gullible as you.

quote:
and choose to say hateful things about the Lord who does those healings.

I merely find amusement in your portrayal of your Lord as the Divine Dentist.

There can be no hate towards an entity that I don't know exists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by randman, posted 12-29-2005 12:33 PM randman has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 300 (274212)
12-30-2005 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by randman
12-26-2005 3:14 PM


Re: prove it
the claim and story are the evidence of the miracle...

Claims and stories are never evidence of anything, because anything, including the false, can be claimed to be true or be shown in a story.

The onus is still on you to provide evidence or retract your claim, because you've provided none. A claim cannot be evidence of itself; that's idiotic. Why would you assert that a claim is evidence? When anything can be claimed?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by randman, posted 12-26-2005 3:14 PM randman has not yet responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 18484
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 67 of 300 (274215)
12-30-2005 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by randman
12-29-2005 12:33 PM


Re: prove it
randman writes:

Shraf, you don't like the way God does things. Talk with him about it.

Why would one talk to someone who doesn't exist? Or at least who doesn't give any overt sign of existing?

Most who don't believe in God (which doesn't include me, though I don't believe in the God of the Bible) don't carry all the emotional baggage with them that you seem to think they do. It's almost as if you think we know that you believers are right, but we're intent on defying God anyway because we've been seduced by science, so we skulk around with frequent looks upward under fear of being smote at any moment. But it isn't like that.

It's more an attitude of bemusement at the gullibility of those willing to embue credibility in any claim supportive of God, no matter how cockamamie. Faith healings, crying statues, Jesus images on store windows, it's all really the same cock and bull story. But if believing this stuff makes some people feel better then who's to say there's anything wrong with it.

AbE: Of course, anyone with a serious illness (e.g., cancer, emphysema, etc.) who seeks out only faith healers for treatment is taking serious risks. By providing reasons for people not to seek professional medical care, faith healers can do serious harm.

Where people like me get emotional about it is when they witness creationist efforts to have religiously based views represented as science. And we're only emotional about the people trying to do this, not about their fictional God. Hating something or someone that doesn't exist would not make much sense.

You choose not to believe, and choose to say hateful things about the Lord who does those healings.

I guess I have the same reaction as Schraf. If someone who wasn't a child asked me in all seriousness if I believed in the Pink Dragon of Elindor who protects the good and punishes the wicked, I would probably say, "No, of course not," or perhaps, "You're kidding, right?" But that doesn't mean I hate the Pink Dragon of Elindor.

If believing or prayer made a difference then fundamentalist Christians would be some of the healthiest and longest-lived people on earth, but they're not. For example, if the efficacy of prayer had a scientific foundation then it should be amenable to double-blind studies where neither the researchers nor the subjects know who was prayed for and who was not. So far such studies fall into two categories: inconclusive and flawed.

--Percy

This message has been edited by Percy, 12-30-2005 02:51 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by randman, posted 12-29-2005 12:33 PM randman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Buzsaw, posted 12-30-2005 11:14 PM Percy has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 300 (274216)
12-30-2005 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by randman
12-29-2005 12:33 PM


Re: prove it
but I mentioned the teeth because I think that would be hard to fake

Hard to fake? Why would it be hard to fake? All you would have to do is just make up a story about it and type it into a text box.

You know, like you did. What on Earth would give you the idea that it would be hard to fake such a story?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by randman, posted 12-29-2005 12:33 PM randman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by nator, posted 01-01-2006 7:34 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3125 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 69 of 300 (274267)
12-30-2005 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by nator
12-29-2005 9:04 AM


Re: prove it
I know a guy that went up for a prayer meeting and came back without a brain, last I heard he was moderating on some Internet discussion board.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by nator, posted 12-29-2005 9:04 AM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Coragyps, posted 12-30-2005 7:58 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5391
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 70 of 300 (274276)
12-30-2005 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Brian
12-30-2005 6:45 PM


Re: prove it
I know him! He goes by "nasa!"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Brian, posted 12-30-2005 6:45 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 300 (274299)
12-30-2005 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Madfish
12-26-2005 11:23 PM


Re: Before You Blame God............

Madfish writes:

I prefer looking for real solutions to these problems.
doing something to aleviate the starving children of the world and the oppessed,

Madfish, did you read all of my post?

I said, "Are you personally praying for".....then I said...... and doing something to aleviate the starving children of the world and the oppressed, et al?

"....real solutions to these problems....."
I pray, yes. I believe that if I pray for the oppressed and starving, God will bless me and others, inspiring us so as to want to and be able to send stuff and money to aleviate the starving children of the world and the oppressed, et al. This we do on a regular basis.

So Madfish, if you're still looking for solutions, try it. It's working to help some. If we get enough doing it lots more will be helped. :cool:

Then we have folks in these impoverished areas who go in and help the oppressed and the starving help themselves by learning to pray for themselves and begin doing the things that bring the good life to them also. :cool:

Ideology is a factor in solutions. Look what the ideology of the founders of the US of A produced. Then look at the oppressed and the starving areas of the world and what their ideologies have produced. Ideology is a factor to consider.


From "THE MONKEY'S VIEWPOINT: Man descended, the ornery cuss, but he surely did not descend from us!"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Madfish, posted 12-26-2005 11:23 PM Madfish has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Brian, posted 12-31-2005 5:19 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 300 (274301)
12-30-2005 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Percy
12-30-2005 1:59 PM


Health
Percy writes:

If believing or prayer made a difference then fundamentalist Christians would be some of the healthiest and longest-lived people on earth, but they're not.

I have to agree. Most health problems are due to lifestyle, lack of exercise and diet. I see very obese folks up getting prayed for at healing meetings on TV and think how a quick fix from God is not going to make any lasting difference if they keep doing what they did to get themselves sick in the first place. Jesus once said, after healing a person, "go and sin no more," suggesting that their lifestyle was makeing them sick. Though I worship on Sabbath (Saturday), I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist, but to my knowledge they do very little faith healing, but are the healthiest block of citizens in America, because they have healthy lifestyles and eat right, for the most part.


From "THE MONKEY'S VIEWPOINT: Man descended, the ornery cuss, but he surely did not descend from us!"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 12-30-2005 1:59 PM Percy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 12-31-2005 11:42 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3125 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 73 of 300 (274338)
12-31-2005 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Buzsaw
12-30-2005 10:57 PM


Re: Before You Blame God............
I pray, yes. I believe that if I pray for the oppressed and starving, God will bless me.

Typical Christian Buz, always looking after number one, always looking for that reward.

You should look to us atheists as an example of decent human beings. We help others out of the kindness of our hearts, because we care about all living things. We don't do good deeds so that we can get something out of it. Try helping someone because they are a fellow human being, and not because you want to get a reward, you'll feel much better about yourself.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Buzsaw, posted 12-30-2005 10:57 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-31-2005 2:41 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 300 (274387)
12-31-2005 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Buzsaw
12-30-2005 11:14 PM


Re: Health
Jesus once said, after healing a person, "go and sin no more," suggesting that their lifestyle was makeing them sick.

I don't remember that from the Bible. Are you sure that's not what he said to the adulteress that they were about to stone?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Buzsaw, posted 12-30-2005 11:14 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 3:08 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2094 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 75 of 300 (274425)
12-31-2005 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Brian
12-31-2005 5:19 AM


bravo.
see. that's what i thought jesus was about. helping people because it was the right thing to do. crazy christians and their 'crowns in heaven'. the catechism i learned as a child said the chief end of man is to glorify god and enjoy him forever, not to do good things to gain reward. *shakes head*
This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Brian, posted 12-31-2005 5:19 AM Brian has not yet responded

Prev1234
5
67
...
20NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019