Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8915 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 07-19-2019 7:59 AM
18 online now:
Faith, Percy (Admin), Theodoric (3 members, 15 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 857,000 Year: 12,036/19,786 Month: 1,817/2,641 Week: 326/708 Day: 20/81 Hour: 4/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
56
7
89
...
20NextFF
Author Topic:   Man raised back to life in Jesus' name
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 91 of 300 (274668)
01-01-2006 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Brian
01-01-2006 7:43 AM


Re: prove it
Brian, you guys just ridicule what you do not understand. If you want to maintain that stance, that's your decision, but don't pretend it's out of education and knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Brian, posted 01-01-2006 7:43 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Brian, posted 01-02-2006 4:45 AM randman has not yet responded
 Message 102 by Brian, posted 01-02-2006 8:12 AM randman has not yet responded

Trixie
Member (Idle past 1901 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 92 of 300 (274695)
01-01-2006 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
01-01-2006 10:57 AM


Re: Health
Hi Faith, thanks for the reply.
Firstly can I say that when I said
If these diseases are the punishment of a righteous God on sinners, surely we are no better than helpers of Satan when we treat and care for these sinners and mitigate or ven cure the punishment that God has sent?

I was only following on the logic which you had presented. You have presented biblical quotes to support the idea that disease is caused by sin. That then leads to the question "Does God approve of us trying to mitigate His punishment?" Can you explain why this is nonsense?

In response to me stating

Obviously I can't agree with any of that. Compassion, sympathy, empathy, charity are at the core of the Christian message, the message of Jesus Christ. Why would Jesus advocate this if it nullifies God's punishments? As Jar is so fond of saying, the Bible is the map, not the territory. I don't have faith in the Bible because it is not God, I don't worship the Bible because it is not God, I have no other God but the God that I know through Jesus and through my relationship with him. I can't have a spiritual relationship with ink on paper.

you said

Straw man. I've never said anything to justify such a notion. The problem is that there is no other source of information about the nature of God. If you don't rely on the Bible's information you are subject to making up your own God and worshiping an idol of your own invention.

I wasn't suggesting that you had said any of this - I was trying to exlain where I was coming from, but what you said has raised another question. If the Bible is to be relied on for information on God and it provides two diametrically opposed pictures of Him, how do we decide what picture is correct? The God of the OT and the God of the NT appear like two different entities, or one entity with a split personality, unless you consider what the purpose of Jesus was. Jesus explained to us what this purpose was, the new covenant. So the relationship between God and man was started anew.

I am relying on the Bible's information just as much as you are, I'm not making up my own God, but I'm following the teachings of Jesus on God as best I can. If you consider that this leaves me worshipping an idol, I can assure you it isn't one of my own making, but one made by Jesus Christ.

Sorry if this is a bit garbled, I'm short of time and brain power. New Year in Scotland can be a bit overwhelming LOL

This message has been edited by Trixie, 01-01-2006 03:32 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 01-01-2006 10:57 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 01-02-2006 4:04 AM Trixie has not yet responded
 Message 120 by randman, posted 01-03-2006 12:50 AM Trixie has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 93 of 300 (274812)
01-01-2006 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by randman
01-01-2006 1:12 PM


Re: prove it
quote:
Shraf, the simple fact is I saw the before and after,

That's not what you said in your initial recounting.

Let me add a small miracle but which would be hard to fake. I had a friend that had fillings in his teeth go up for prayer in a healing meeting and when he came back to his seat the fillings were gone and he had tooth where the fillings were.

You mention nothing of seeing his fillings before the meeting. Are you saying that you looked in his mouth and recorded which teeth had fillings, or perhaps took a picture, before he went up to the meeting? Were you with him the entire time, before, during, and after the "miracle dental work" occurred, when you are sure you saw the fillings before and know which teeth they were in? Are you familiar enoughwith dental work to know if teeth have been replaced, or white, natural looking fillings have been swapped for the silver?

There's a simple way to put this to rest.

Is there any way we can get the e-mail address of theis guy's dentist so we can verify that he actually has new living toothin places where he had fillings before?

I know a guy staying at my brother-in-laws that went up for prayer with the older darker colored fillings come back with gold fillings. I was not at the meeting, but looked at the fillings myself as we were all staying at the same house. They were also intricate drawings on the gold.

So, we know for sure that you were not with this guy for the entire process.

I am also assuming that there were no controls or real recording of data in either case.

quote:
and have witnessed so many miracles in different meetings, and received some myself, that from my perspective, debating it with you is like a man trying to tell someone in a primitive state that an airplane is not a big bird or some such.

You still don't get it, randman.

Let me ask you this. If I told you that the Galactic Invisible Unicorn had been granting me Wishes since I started worshipping at Her temple, and I told you about all of my wonderful experiences with Wishes coming true, and I could tell you a story about this friend that I knew who used to get real bad gas but ever since they got a Wish they don't get gas any more,, and if I said that I was given 100 dollars every year by the GIU, would you take me at my word?

Wouldn't you at least want to see the money before believing me?

Or, would you just believe everything I told you, without a single doubt?

I have never, ever, once said that any of the events you have claimed are not miracles.

They may well be.

The problem is that without some sort of real evidence and normal controls in place, they are just stories and hearsay.

quote:
I suppose you haven't been there, haven't seen, and so you ridicule what you do not understand.

It's not my fault I don't "understand" or believe.

You have made it impossible for me to come to any conclusion at all regarding your claims.

It's not my fault you have decided to treat these claims in such a completely credulous manner.

Thanks, but I'll keep my bullshit detector firmly in my back pocket rather than throwing it out the car window on the freeway as you seem to have.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 1:12 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by nwr, posted 01-01-2006 9:55 PM nator has responded
 Message 96 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 11:09 PM nator has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 94 of 300 (274816)
01-01-2006 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by nator
01-01-2006 9:35 PM


Re: prove it
quote:
Let me add a small miracle but which would be hard to fake. I had a friend that had fillings in his teeth go up for prayer in a healing meeting and when he came back to his seat the fillings were gone and he had tooth where the fillings were.

You mention nothing of seeing his fillings before the meeting. Are you saying that you looked in his mouth and recorded which teeth had fillings, or perhaps took a picture, before he went up to the meeting?



If you had looked at a couple of my teeth last November, you would have seen very obvious fillings. If you looked again today, you would see no sign of the fillings.

They are called crowns. I expect that a dentist can distinguish between crowns and plain teeth, but most untrained people could not.


Impeach Bush
This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by nator, posted 01-01-2006 9:35 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by nator, posted 01-02-2006 7:27 AM nwr has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 32154
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 300 (274823)
01-01-2006 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Admin
01-01-2006 12:39 PM


Re: Health
Again, I wasn't "saying" anything. I quoted the Bible. Referred to the Bible in the case of Proverbs. Didn't give my own view of anything.

quote:
Faith, I have to confess as much confusion as Trixie. Any reasonable person would assume you provided the Bible quotes because they were congruent or supportive of your arguments. If they were for some other purpose, perhaps providing relevant background, then you need to make that clear.

I don't understand your confusion, or hers. Perhaps you can make it clearer. If she had quoted anything I'd said other than that one post she was answering, which is nothing but Bible references, it would have helped, as most of what she said that supposedly characterizes my beliefs, couldn't be less recognizable to me.

As for that one post, of course those references support my arguments, or more accurately, they are the source of my arguments. But I didn't make any arguments on this thread. I believe the Bible quotes speak for themselves, don't they? Not ambiguous that I can see.

I didn't enter this thread until Message 76 in answer to Crashfrog's Message 74. CF was answering Buzsaw's saying that Jesus' saying "Go and sin no more" to someone He had just healed implies a connection between sin and disease. Crash objected that he thought Jesus only said that to the woman caught in adultery, but I pointed out that He said it to a man he had just healed, and gave the reference in the gospel of John. I added that the Book of Proverbs also has many warnings that health will be adversely affected by sin and improved by obedience. Referring to this Biblical reference is simply saying that's what it says, and it does. It says that. I can go through the book and list the verses where this is said, if that is needed. There is no ambiguity in them.

Hypothetical conversation:

Person 1: Well, I think Max was being stupid.
Person 2: "Judge not that ye be not judged."
Person 1: Don't you think I should have an opinion about his behavior?
Person 2: I never said you shouldn't.
Person 1: Yes you did. You said I shouldn't judge him unless I wanted to risk judgment myself.
Person 2: No I didn't. I just quoted the Bible.
Person 1: Okay, fine, whatever. See ya.

I have NO idea how this hypothetical conversation represents anything I have said. The topic is the Bible's connection between sin and death and disease. It's there. It's not an opinion. It's there.

Trixie's first retort to my post was a complaint about "my reasoning" when all I had done was quote the Bible.

Sorry, but if YOU are confused, I am all the more so.

This message has been edited by Faith, 01-01-2006 11:10 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Admin, posted 01-01-2006 12:39 PM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by crashfrog, posted 01-02-2006 12:38 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 103 by Admin, posted 01-02-2006 9:01 AM Faith has responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 96 of 300 (274845)
01-01-2006 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by nator
01-01-2006 9:35 PM


Re: prove it
Shraf, if you don't know by now, I pretty much scan your posts, and if long, don't read most of them. I did not read this post past the beginning of it. They have been filled with so much nonsense and absurdly inappropiate attitudes, I just skip them.

As far as this particular miracle, I have noted it on more than one occasion so there are different people and different times involved, some where I was present, and sometimes when I was not but spoke with the people involved, including the person receiving the miracle.

You can probably find something on the web concerning it if you want to.

I have learned though it is foolish to try to prove and provide documentation of miracles which I used to try to do, because no matter what you provide, people like you will not believe if you do not want to. Heck, I had one person claim that, well, sometimes teeth grow back on their own.

So if you do not wish to believe, that is your business. It's not up to me to prove it to you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by nator, posted 01-01-2006 9:35 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by nator, posted 01-02-2006 7:38 AM randman has not yet responded
 Message 104 by nator, posted 01-02-2006 10:17 AM randman has not yet responded
 Message 106 by nator, posted 01-02-2006 10:40 AM randman has responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 300 (274883)
01-02-2006 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
01-01-2006 10:11 PM


Re: Health
Yeah, admins, I did ask for the Bible cite, and Faith provided it. She wasn't offering her own opinion; she was merely responding to a question I posed to Buz, asking him to cite the Biblical support he alluded to in support of his opinion that sin makes you unhealthy, or whatever.

The reasoning didn't feel familiar to me, from the Bible, so I asked. Faith provided. Not sure why it's still under discussion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 01-01-2006 10:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 32154
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 98 of 300 (274925)
01-02-2006 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Trixie
01-01-2006 3:31 PM


Re: Health
Hi Faith, thanks for the reply.
Firstly can I say that when I said
If these diseases are the punishment of a righteous God on sinners, surely we are no better than helpers of Satan when we treat and care for these sinners and mitigate or ven cure the punishment that God has sent?

I was only following on the logic which you had presented.

Well what I presented is the unambiguous words of the Bible so your argument is with the Bible, not with me. You perfectly well know that the Bible is full of God's will to cure the sick, so what kind of game are you playing anyway?

You have presented biblical quotes to support the idea that disease is caused by sin. That then leads to the question "Does God approve of us trying to mitigate His punishment?" Can you explain why this is nonsense?

Please excuse me if I say that I can't think of this question as anything but absurd, disingenuous, dishonest, manipulative. If you know the Bible at all, you know perfectly well that it teaches BOTH. You perfectly well know that healing is a great part of the Biblical teaching, so why are you asking me if God "approves of us trying to mitigate his punishment?" You're playing games. If you didn't know that it teaches that disease is caused by sin I'm surprised, but by now evidence enough has been given to demonstrate that to you.

In response to me stating
quote:
Obviously I can't agree with any of that. Compassion, sympathy, empathy, charity are at the core of the Christian message, the message of Jesus Christ. Why would Jesus advocate this if it nullifies God's punishments? As Jar is so fond of saying, the Bible is the map, not the territory. I don't have faith in the Bible because it is not God, I don't worship the Bible because it is not God, I have no other God but the God that I know through Jesus and through my relationship with him. I can't have a spiritual relationship with ink on paper.

you said


Straw man. I've never said anything to justify such a notion. The problem is that there is no other source of information about the nature of God. If you don't rely on the Bible's information you are subject to making up your own God and worshiping an idol of your own invention.

I wasn't suggesting that you had said any of this - I was trying to exlain where I was coming from,

BS. You didn't need to SAY it. You were implying what jar always says, that I "worship ink on paper" and that I disregard the Bible's message of compassion. And "where you are coming from" seems to be this absurd idea that I personally somehow disregard the message of compassion in the Bible simply because I gave some evidence for the other topic of how the Bible says that disease is related to sin.

...but what you said has raised another question. If the Bible is to be relied on for information on God and it provides two diametrically opposed pictures of Him, how do we decide what picture is correct? The God of the OT and the God of the NT appear like two different entities, or one entity with a split personality, unless you consider what the purpose of Jesus was. Jesus explained to us what this purpose was, the new covenant. So the relationship between God and man was started anew.

Between God and BELIEVERS, not God and man as such, although God takes care of all humanity, "sends rain on the just and the unjust" in compassion, and through His believers blessings have spilled over to the rest of humanity as well. He is a God of mercy to his disobedient human creation, who saved us "even when we were yet sinners."

The two pictures are not diametrically opposed, for starters. God's hating and punishing sin doesn't mean he hasn't mercy on the sinner. As you yourself are saying, mercy and compassion are the great theme of Jesus' ministry.

The reason we need salvation and healing is that we are under God's wrath because of sin. He has in mercy provided the salvation, the healing of the diseases that are the consequence of the sin, the whole works. There is no salvation, no mercy, no compassion without wrath. It makes no sense without wrath. I've explained this many many times before here, though maybe you've missed it.

This message has been edited by Faith, 01-02-2006 04:29 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Trixie, posted 01-01-2006 3:31 PM Trixie has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3155 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 99 of 300 (274928)
01-02-2006 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by randman
01-01-2006 1:13 PM


Re: prove it
Are you saying it never happened?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 1:13 PM randman has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 100 of 300 (274940)
01-02-2006 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by nwr
01-01-2006 9:55 PM


Re: prove it
quote:
If you had looked at a couple of my teeth last November, you would have seen very obvious fillings. If you looked again today, you would see no sign of the fillings.
They are called crowns. I expect that a dentist can distinguish between crowns and plain teeth, but most untrained people could not.

OK, now I'm 99% sure that those guys are nudging each other in the ribs and laughing at what they were able to get randman to believe.

Poor randman.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by nwr, posted 01-01-2006 9:55 PM nwr has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 101 of 300 (274941)
01-02-2006 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by randman
01-01-2006 11:09 PM


Re: prove it
quote:
I have learned though it is foolish to try to prove and provide documentation of miracles which I used to try to do, because no matter what you provide, people like you will not believe if you do not want to.

That's not true at all.

I have said, over and over, that the events you describe might be real miracles. I have not ever said that they were not.

I think it would be the most incredible and fabulous thing in the entire world to be witness to a real miracle or supernatural event that was demonstrated or viewed under controled conditions in which reasonable measures were taken to eliminate bias and fraud. It would be life-changing and might even get me to believe in some kind of god.

I am open, randman, to them being real.

That's why I require evidence and some kind of proper controls and some basic verification before I'll accept it. I don't just believe what people say about supernatural occurrences just because they say so.

So, since you are unable or unwilling to give me anything to support your story other than, "Believe me because I want you to.", I have no choice but to remain undecided regarding the veracity of your stories. I don't know if they are true or not, because there is not enough good, untainted data for me to make a determination.

Can you please tell me why thinking in this way is so wrong, and such a terrible shortcoming?

This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-02-2006 07:43 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 11:09 PM randman has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3155 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 102 of 300 (274946)
01-02-2006 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by randman
01-01-2006 1:13 PM


Re: prove it
Brian, you guys just ridicule what you do not understand.

I must admit, it is difficult to understand how an adult can be so gullible, because that is all it is.

You do not offer any good reason for believing you, it is all simply your word. It isn't impossible that you have been conned, it happens all the time. Even Eusebius admitted that it is okay to lie about God if it helps to popularise Christianity.

Maybe you should be a little more sceptical, and question 'miracles' in the same way that you question evolution.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 1:13 PM randman has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12613
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 103 of 300 (274959)
01-02-2006 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
01-01-2006 10:11 PM


Re: Health
Faith writes:

Hypothetical conversation:

Person 1: Well, I think Max was being stupid.
Person 2: "Judge not that ye be not judged."
Person 1: Don't you think I should have an opinion about his behavior?
Person 2: I never said you shouldn't.
Person 1: Yes you did. You said I shouldn't judge him unless I wanted to risk judgment myself.
Person 2: No I didn't. I just quoted the Bible.
Person 1: Okay, fine, whatever. See ya.

I have NO idea how this hypothetical conversation represents anything I have said. The topic is the Bible's connection between sin and death and disease. It's there. It's not an opinion. It's there.

My hypothetical conversation was intended to illustrate the frustration inherent in dealing with contradictory behavior. "Don't judge," says Person 2. "Why shouldn't I judge?" says Person 1. "I didn't say you shouldn't," says Person 2.

Isn't that contradictory expression by Person 2 of the same nature as your conversation with Trixie? If I could paraphrase, "Follow God for better health," you said. "That's not consistent with a loving Father," replies Trixie. "I never expressed an opinion," you answer.

Sounds frustratingly contradictory to me, and that's why I commented in admin mode. It turns out that you and Trixie are doing an admirable job keeping the discussion civil and constructive, so in retrospect there was probably no need for me to say anything, but I wanted to be proactive just in case the discussion was about to spiral out of control.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 01-01-2006 10:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 01-02-2006 10:27 AM Admin has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 104 of 300 (274980)
01-02-2006 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by randman
01-01-2006 11:09 PM


Re: prove it
Is there any way we can get the e-mail address of theis guy's dentist so we can verify that he actually has new living toothin places where he had fillings before?

Surely, this miracle of regrowing teeth has to have been published in some kind of dentistry journal, or at least in some newspaper.

It would be an incredible medical story that I imagine would make newspapers and online news sources everywhere, similar to the partially eaten grilled cheese sandwich with the Virgin Mary on it.

This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-02-2006 10:20 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 11:09 PM randman has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32154
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 105 of 300 (274986)
01-02-2006 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Admin
01-02-2006 9:01 AM


Re: Health
My hypothetical conversation was intended to illustrate the frustration inherent in dealing with contradictory behavior. "Don't judge," says Person 2. "Why shouldn't I judge?" says Person 1. "I didn't say you shouldn't," says Person 2.

Isn't that contradictory expression by Person 2 of the same nature as your conversation with Trixie?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!

If I could paraphrase, "Follow God for better health," you said. "That's not consistent with a loving Father," replies Trixie. "I never expressed an opinion," you answer.

I did NOT say "Follow God for better health" Percy, I quoted JESUS telling a man He healed to "Go and sin no more" and I referenced Proverbs where people are admonished to avoid sin and practice righteousness and ill or good health is often the consequence.

Yes this is my opinion ALSO, but the FIRST thing that has to be noticed is that I WAS JUST PROVIDING A CITATION, WHICH CRASHFROG EVEN NOTED, why can't you? This is what the Bible says. So that if someone is going to start arguing with me about what the Bible says they are arguing with the Bible and not with me.

And second, Trixie's accusation that because I quote the Bible on one topic means I am therefore ignoring another Biblical theme is incredibly absurd and annoying. How on earth could anyone read the Bible and not notice the abundance of teachings on healing? Why is she accusing me of this irrelevant side issue of this whole other Biblical theme when the topic is the relation of disease to sin and all I've done is provide a citation to this topic?

Sounds frustratingly contradictory to me, and that's why I commented in admin mode.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you find my answer contradictory but her insinuating irrelevant post admirable.

It turns out that you and Trixie are doing an admirable job keeping the discussion civil and constructive, so in retrospect there was probably no need for me to say anything, but I wanted to be proactive just in case the discussion was about to spiral out of control.

Right, by targeting me rather than her.

Have a Happy New Year.

This message has been edited by Faith, 01-02-2006 10:40 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Admin, posted 01-02-2006 9:01 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Admin, posted 01-02-2006 11:52 AM Faith has responded

  
Prev1
...
56
7
89
...
20NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019