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Author Topic:   Wild Gorillas using Tools
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 1 of 42 (247493)
09-29-2005 10:53 PM


Not really much to debate here, just important info
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N29223622.htm

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by arachnophilia, posted 09-30-2005 3:56 AM Nuggin has replied
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 2 of 42 (247526)
09-30-2005 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
09-29-2005 10:53 PM


haven't they always used tools? to fish for ants and such?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nuggin, posted 09-29-2005 10:53 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Nuggin, posted 09-30-2005 9:04 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 3 of 42 (247613)
09-30-2005 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by arachnophilia
09-30-2005 3:56 AM


Gorilla Tool Use
No, until now the only chimps and orangs had been seen using tools in the wild. Gorillas is a new observation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by arachnophilia, posted 09-30-2005 3:56 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Omnivorous, posted 09-30-2005 3:11 PM Nuggin has not replied
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 09-30-2005 5:40 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 42 (247685)
09-30-2005 2:19 PM


Thread moved here from the Coffee House forum.

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 5 of 42 (247715)
09-30-2005 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Nuggin
09-30-2005 9:04 AM


Re: Gorilla Tool Use
Nuggin writes:
They describe the two instances in the northern rain forests of the Republic of Congo.
"We first observed an adult female gorilla using a branch as a walking stick to test water deepness and to aid in her attempt to cross a pool of water at Mbeli Bai, a swampy forest clearing in northern Congo," Breuer and his international colleagues wrote.
In the second case, they saw another pull up a dead shrub.
"She forcefully pushed it into the ground with both hands and held the tool for support with her left hand over her head for two minutes while dredging food with the other hand," they wrote.
"Efi then took the trunk with both hands and placed it on the swampy ground in front of her, crossed bipedally on this self-made bridge, and walked quadrupedally towards the middle of the clearing."
I was esp. impressed by the "dual-use" nature of both observations: depth gauge then bridge (or walking stick? not clear from story), and safety anchor then bridge. I would love to see video: did they foresee the second use before initating the first or pause for thought and then determine the second use?
I believe chimp tool use (e.g., fishing for termites with twigs) has been observed to be cultural--some troops do it, some don't. I'm not sure there are enough gorilla communities left to make that dermination in their case, sad to say. I recall that one of Koko's fellow gorillas is sophisticated enough to lie about a piece of equipment he damaged--blaming instead a human caretaker he did not like.
I have a years-long fascination with corvids (crows, ravens, jays, etc.) intelligence. They practice tool shaping; in their food caching they engage in deceit sophisticated enough to suggest they are aware of the internal state of other corvids. I'd recommend the literature on these sassy birds to anyone interested in animal intelligence. The Mind of the Raven by Bernd Heinrich is a great place to start.
Edit: for clarity
This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 09-30-2005 03:13 PM

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 6 of 42 (247777)
09-30-2005 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Nuggin
09-30-2005 9:04 AM


Re: Gorilla Tool Use
No, until now the only chimps and orangs had been seen using tools in the wild. Gorillas is a new observation.
oh, i see.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 42 (247818)
09-30-2005 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Omnivorous
09-30-2005 3:11 PM


Re: Gorilla Tool Use
Saw the news on this and was going to start a thread... ah well.
I find this tool use to be pretty much at the limit of definition of a tool, imho.
On crows, was it you that posted on the crows using cars to crack nuts (placing them in intersections when the lights were red in the paths of the stopped cars and waiting until the next cycle to eat the results?)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Omnivorous, posted 09-30-2005 3:11 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 09-30-2005 8:10 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 11 by Omnivorous, posted 09-30-2005 9:17 PM RAZD has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 42 (247821)
09-30-2005 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
09-30-2005 8:02 PM


Re: Gorilla Tool Use
On crows, was it you that posted on the crows using cars to crack nuts (placing them in intersections when the lights were red in the paths of the stopped cars and waiting until the next cycle to eat the results?)
I don't think I've ever posted on it but I've seen Black Birds and Grackles do that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 09-30-2005 8:02 PM RAZD has replied

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 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 09-30-2005 8:15 PM jar has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 42 (247822)
09-30-2005 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
09-30-2005 8:10 PM


Re: Gorilla Tool Use
What impresses me is that it shows an understanding of consequences, it is behavior based on predicting results.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 09-30-2005 8:10 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 42 (247824)
09-30-2005 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
09-30-2005 8:15 PM


Bird tool use.
It was even more interesting.
I had a 70 mile each way commute, almost all straight interstate, I-95. I got to see many interesting things.
Grackles would run into the lane and drop food, usually nuts but also shellfish. Then they'd run back to the shoulder and face traffic. They never seemed to go any further than necessary.
The Red Wing Blackbirds dropped stuff in front of traffic, the swooped down to get the bounty. Then they'd run off to the side with it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 11 of 42 (247835)
09-30-2005 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
09-30-2005 8:02 PM


Re: Gorilla Tool Use
RAZD writes:
On crows, was it you that posted on the crows using cars to crack nuts (placing them in intersections when the lights were red in the paths of the stopped cars and waiting until the next cycle to eat the results?)
Nope, not me, though I, too, saw the story and found (like jar) that it confirmed personal observation.
I find this tool use to be pretty much at the limit of definition of a tool, imho.
Yah, RAZD, it is rudimentary, with no real fashioning taking place...but it is the first such gorilla observation in the wild. I think the demonstrations of gorilla intelligence in captivity--tool use and otherwise--are much more striking.
We have so few gorillas left that we will never know how sophisticated their tool use in the wild may have been.
Jar, has it ever struck you that birds car-surf? I am convinced of it.
I have seen a number of species, including crows and starlings, fly at a 90 degree angle to a car's path and suddenly dip down into the car's air wake/wave so that they are hurtled upward at high speed. It looks like great fun.
I am convinced they do this deliberately, rather than accidentally, but I cannot find a reference to the behavior anywhere.
If you haven't seen it before, watch for it: let me know what you think.
This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 09-30-2005 09:17 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 09-30-2005 8:02 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 09-30-2005 9:20 PM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 15 by RAZD, posted 09-30-2005 10:08 PM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 17 by Lithodid-Man, posted 10-01-2005 3:54 AM Omnivorous has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 42 (247836)
09-30-2005 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Omnivorous
09-30-2005 9:17 PM


Re: Gorilla Tool Use
Yes, I have seen Bird Surfing but would not have mentioned it as it seemed way too unbelievable. But since someone else has seen it ... LOL

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Omnivorous, posted 09-30-2005 9:17 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Omnivorous, posted 09-30-2005 9:30 PM jar has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 13 of 42 (247839)
09-30-2005 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
09-30-2005 9:20 PM


Re: Gorilla Tool Use
jar writes:
Yes, I have seen Bird Surfing but would not have mentioned it as it seemed way too unbelievable. But since someone else has seen it ... LOL
Thanks, jar, you've made my night.
We should publish

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 Message 12 by jar, posted 09-30-2005 9:20 PM jar has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 14 of 42 (247848)
09-30-2005 10:00 PM


Crows and Cane Toads
Not so much a 'tool' as an approach.
With the introduction of cane toads (Bufo marinus) into north Australia in 1935 to combat beetles in sugarcane, we added a new threat to our wildlife. Ignoring beetles, cane toads proceeded to decimate the smaller native creatures (frogs and other amphibians, snakes,birds, etc.). Crows used the SOP so well proven on their prey and attacked the head of Bufo and most died as a result of the poison glands there. Some high-IQ crow worked out the safest way was to tip the critter over and now this has spread through the crow population.
Homo sap has 'developed' a variety of tools to counter the cane toad.
* a golfing 7 iron (lifts object over fence into neighbour`s yard)
* put toads in bag. Tie to car exhaust. Start car.
* bag and kill in freezer (post warning notice on door for midnight snackers)
* use vehicle to press road 'carpet')
* drop salt or disinfectant on individual(sure, but slow method)
* flatten with shovel (usually takes 6 whacks)
* kamikazi approach (fill toad with LP gas. Drop on bar-b-cue)
For those unacquainted with Bufo
Page Not Found - JCU Australia

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 15 of 42 (247849)
09-30-2005 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Omnivorous
09-30-2005 9:17 PM


Bird highs
I have seen a number of species, including crows
You might look into mating display flight behavior as an impetus. Ravens are also known to play in the updrafts of cliffs.
Of course all it takes is one bird with a near escape and getting that adreneline rush ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Omnivorous, posted 09-30-2005 9:17 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
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