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Author Topic:   Ken Ham's Creation Museum
kalimero
Member (Idle past 2472 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 62 of 129 (399849)
05-08-2007 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Buzsaw
05-08-2007 12:04 AM


Empiri...What now?
I actually agree with you Buz. Every person has his own perspective of the world, what might seem like evidence to one person would not necessarily seem like evidence to another. Lets assume, just like science does, that there is a absolute real world for us to explore - one that, if we could be all-knowing, we would agree on completely. Of course we are not all-knowing and so each of us has his own perspective. So, how would you go about exploring the world? Assuming you don't have enough time to explore it by yourself, you would need a method for people to explore by, and a standard of evidence to measure which hypothesis are probably real/true (are a part of the absolute world as described) and which are not.
Put yourself in the shoes of a scientist: How, if no standard of evidence exists, could we know anything about the world?
One person says one thing, another person says another thing, how do we decide?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Buzsaw, posted 05-08-2007 12:04 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Buzsaw, posted 05-08-2007 9:43 PM kalimero has replied

  
kalimero
Member (Idle past 2472 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 69 of 129 (399944)
05-09-2007 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Buzsaw
05-08-2007 9:43 PM


Re: Standard Of Evidence
I understand that you want free inquiry into the evidence, that's ok as long as people are not being deceitful. But the question remains:
kalimero writes:
One person says one thing, another person says another thing, how do we decide?
(I mean as a society, not as individual people)
If you suggest letting the people decide (democratically) - then I think that's a bad idea, for the simple reason that most people don't know much about science to come to any intelligent conclusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Buzsaw, posted 05-08-2007 9:43 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Buzsaw, posted 05-10-2007 12:07 AM kalimero has replied

  
kalimero
Member (Idle past 2472 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 78 of 129 (400080)
05-10-2007 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Buzsaw
05-10-2007 12:07 AM


Re: Standard Of Evidence
Well then, Kalimero, what do you suggest? Should the govt shut down Ham's museum or should it be allowed to remain open for all to see and decide for themselves whether it's credible or not?
Ken Ham's "museum" uses deceitful tactics in order to cause people to give them money.
The definition of fraud from the Legal Encyclopedia.
Also, from the glossary of legal terms (Munley, Munley & Cartwright):
Fraud: False and deceptive statement of fact intended to induce another person to rely upon and, in reliance thereof, give up a valuable thing he or she owns or a legal right he or she is entitled to.
The definition of reliance from Law Dictionary:
Reliance
Dependence, confidence, trust, repose of mind upon what is deemed sufficient support or authority.
detrimental reliance involves reliance by one party on the acts, representations, or promises of another that cause the first party to allow or to effect a change for the worse in his or her position, and is an important element in many legal contexts. If such a detrimental change of position is established, and if the reliance appears to have been justified under the circumstances, it may preclude revocation of an offer or waiver, and may support a promise as a contract even without consideration (see promissory estoppel). Such reliance is also a necessary ingredient in an action to recover upon a claim of fraud.
{Sorry for the big cut & paste}
Lets see if Ken Ham and his "museum" really stand up to the criteria for fraud:
  • (1) a false statement of a material fact
    From the Legal Encyclopedia :
    A material fact is an occurrence, event, or information that is sufficiently significant to influence an individual into acting in a certain way, such as entering into a contract.
    I would say that telling people that the earth is 10000 years old, despite being told otherwise from actual scientists, is "a false statement of a material fact".
  • (2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue
    His Statement of Accountability says:
    The AiG ministry has always relied on the advice, wisdom and review of the very best international scientists available, including leading geologists, geneticists, astronomers, paleontologists and theologians. The majority of these professionals have no official association with AiG, except a common desire to develop the most excellent information and materials possible, to honor Christ, to advance the church and to further the growing community spirit of Christian scientists who love God’s Word.
    {my bold}
    I think he knows.
  • (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim
    His Mission Statement says it all.
  • (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement
    Ken Ham obviously uses religious rhetoric to base his statements and get money from people, the religious convictions of the "museum" visitors would constitute a reliance on his statements.
  • (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.
    Besides the educational injury there is the financial injury.
IMO, Ken Ham should go the way of Peter Popoff, not necessarily to jail, but surely not running such a "museum".
BTW: you still haven't answered my question:
kalimero writes:
One person says one thing, another person says another thing, how do we decide?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Buzsaw, posted 05-10-2007 12:07 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Buzsaw, posted 05-10-2007 10:13 PM kalimero has not replied

  
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