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Author Topic:   Ken Ham's Creation Museum
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 93 of 129 (400329)
05-12-2007 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Buzsaw
05-09-2007 11:58 PM


Re: Standard Of Evidence, Standard Of Lies
Razd, me friend, you and Jar sure do like to use that nasty word, "lie," when it comes to debate. It appears that since your arguments are weak, you think this handy little nasty meanspirited word will somehow lend credence to your weak arguments.

No, I like to use the word "lie" when it is a fact in the matter. Calling a spade a spade. Don Batten lies about dendrochronology and Ken Ham lies about the age of the earth. If my argument is weak how come you can't refute it? There is no way to sugar coat it: the earth is old and telling people it is young is a lie. Collecting money to tell them in a manner that would lead gullible people to think there was some validity to the claim is fraud.

The standard of evidence is this:

  • multiple different methods all point to the earth being old.
  • multiple different methods date specific parts of the earth to the same ages.
  • multiple methods validate the ages derived.
  • the ages correlate with the layers of sediment and
  • there can be evidence of young parts of the earth in an old earth reality, but there cannot be evidence of old parts of the earth in a young earth reality.

The evidence that Ken Ham presents is incomplete, misrepresentative and misleading and it does not deal with the overwhelming mountains of evidence for an old earth. It can't deal with it, so it must ignore it, and this is the lie of omission.

Like Don Batten not telling how he determined that up to 6 false rings occurred in one sample of one kind of tree, in order to claim that dendrochronology is unreliable because it cannot determine (with a microscope) when false tree rings exist. Notice the Catch-22 of his lie: either he is lying about not being able to determine false tree rings or he is lying about the false tree rings in his sample. This is one way to know someone is lying -- when they contradict themselves.

Now when it comes to Ken Ham, we have the standard "Dawkins possibilities" for bearing false witness:

  • stupidity
  • ignorance
  • maliciousness or
  • insanity
I think we can rule out stupidity and uneducated ignorance, the idea that he has never encountered the concept of an old earth or the evidence for it, and that if told would say "I did not know that" -- so that leaves us either maliciousness or insanity.

Willfull ignorance is insanity, being at least the level of delusion:

de·lu·sion –noun1. an act or instance of deluding.
2. the state of being deluded.
3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

Malicious would include the charges of lying and fraud. It is possible to be both malicious and insane. Personally I think the "Cult of Ignorance" (to use Jar's favorite phrase) induces a level of insanity, just as any cult does on it's members, by forcing them to chose between reality and the mythos of the cult beliefs.

kalimero Message 78 covers the facts of the issue regarding fraud pretty well. The intent of the museum is to separate gullible people from their money while coddling to their belief structures and giving false reassurances based on falsehoods.

Ken Ham lies about the age of the earth, he lies about evolution, and he lies about the co-existence of man and dinosaurs. He sells these lies to gullible people in order to make a profit. That there are a lot of gullible people in America makes it easy for him to do so, but it does not make it right.

So, Buz, old friend: when is a good time to stop telling lies to children?

Science stopped using "Piltdown Man" as soon as the fraud was uncovered -- uncovered by doubting scientist, the accumulating evidence that contradicted it, and the eventual confessions of the perpetrators. When will creationists stop using their frauds?

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : spellnig


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2007 11:58 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by NosyNed, posted 05-12-2007 10:27 AM RAZD has responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8842
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 94 of 129 (400330)
05-12-2007 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by RAZD
05-12-2007 9:58 AM


Tiny OT diversion
Re: Piltdown man
and the eventual confessions of the perpetrators.

As far as I recall no one every confessed. I think the facts of the matter are:

Piltdown man was taken seriously for a time. It caused difficulties when real finds were not in agreement with it and caused them to be treated less seriously.

As other finds grew in number the anomoly that was Piltdown started to stand out as an anomoly more and more but did cause confusion for many years.

By the time new methods proved it to be a fake no one was surprised.

No one every knew for sure who did it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by RAZD, posted 05-12-2007 9:58 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 95 of 129 (400331)
05-12-2007 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by NosyNed
05-12-2007 10:27 AM


Re: Tiny OT diversion
you are correct
Piltdown mastermind?
my bad. I thought Charles Dawson had confessed

Edited by RAZD, : added


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 96 of 129 (400333)
05-12-2007 10:57 AM


What's in a museum, anyway?
mu·se·um –nA building, place, or institution devoted to the acquisition, conservation, study, exhibition, and educational interpretation of objects having scientific, historical, or artistic value.
bold and color mine for emPHAsis ...

I am not aware of any such objects in the displays mentioned. At least Carl Baugh has "objects" in his "Creation Evidence Museum" (even if they are frauds)

Is this a new step in creationist fraud - skip the false facts altogether and go directly to the "interpretation"? Convenient when you don't have any valid facts to use eh?

It's more like Hovinds fantasyland:
http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-11/hovind.html

Perhaps they qualify as artistic artifacts ...

Enjoy.


Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4081 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 97 of 129 (400347)
05-12-2007 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Buzsaw
05-08-2007 9:43 PM


Evidence
Buz writes:

The evidence is that man of all cultures has had a religious bent since records have been kept. Imo, that is idicative that there is a spiritual dimension in the universe and that venues of observing alternatives to secularism are good for study and observation of what exists.

This argument is usually phrased as "Thirst is evidence of water". However one could as easily say:

The evidence is that man of all cultures has had a *musical* bent since records have been kept. Imo, that is indicative that there is a *musical* dimension in the universe

Probably not. Musical ability and appreciation is purely a human trait, as is the desire to "worship" a god being. The more primitive impulses anthromorphize this god being and the worship includes some form of sacrifice.

Buz writes:

alternatives to secularism

Alternatives to "secularism" is superstition and ignorance. Study primitive cultures or the workings of theocracies, if you want to understand the full negative aspects of the opposite of "secularism" - religionism.

Buz writes:

Likely there is some things in Ham's place that will allow for folks to observe where Ham's kind come from and why they interpret the evidence differently than secularists.

"Creation Science" does provide good working examples of logical fallacies. Further "Creation Science" is an interesting study on just how stubborn and how far people can purposefully misinterpret readily observable data, in order to support preconceived belief systems.

Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
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Posts: 18484
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 98 of 129 (402106)
05-24-2007 11:21 AM


New York Times Article
The Arts section of today's New York Times contains an article about the museum:

Adam and Eve in the Land of the Dinosaurs

--Percy


Replies to this message:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 99 of 129 (402326)
05-25-2007 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Percy
05-24-2007 11:21 AM


Re: New York Times Article
Disneyland for the Deluded. $27,000,000? Wow, I`m shifting over to exploitation of the gullible.
Wonder if they have an exhibit showing which of Noah`s kin sired the Neanderthals?
This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 100 of 129 (402343)
05-25-2007 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Buzsaw
05-09-2007 11:58 PM


Re: Standard Of Evidence
quote:
In America he has the right to present to the public what he sincerely believes to be true as he interprets the evidence which he is observing.

I agree, as long as he or she takes no government funding for their museum.

I mean, if the Nation of Islam or the Fair Education Foundation (a Geocentrist/still Earth society) or the Institute for Historical Review (a major Holocaust denial organization) wish to have a museum, even if the entire contents of all of those museums contradict much of the mainstream, well-supported science and history they deal with, they should be allowed just as Ken Ham's Creationist museum should be allowed.

You would support all of those museums, wouldn't you Buz?


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Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5392
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 101 of 129 (402572)
05-28-2007 10:19 AM


DEFCON has a "tract" by Lawrence Krauss debunking the museum's BS. It's all familiar stuff to most of us here, but it's a decent tool for the fence-sitters going to the place.
pdf is at http://www.defconamerica.org/creationmuseum/creation_museum_guide.pdf
    
Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3725
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 102 of 129 (402755)
05-29-2007 9:41 PM


Several postings at Panda's Thumb / Also youtube video
http://www.pandasthumb.org/

With the opening of the museum, there has been quite a bit of coverage in the various news media. See PT for some comments on this.

Somewhere in there someone posted a youtube link to Creation Museum Grand Opening on Bill O'Reillys Show (28-May-07). Bill had a guest host that show.

Moose


Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 18484
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 103 of 129 (402840)
05-30-2007 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Minnemooseus
05-29-2007 9:41 PM


Re: Several postings at Panda's Thumb / Also youtube video
Minnemooseus writes:

Somewhere in there someone posted a youtube link to Creation Museum Grand Opening on Bill O'Reillys Show (28-May-07). Bill had a guest host that show.

This is Ken Ham versus Lawrence Krauss (physics professor at Case Western, former head of their physics department, and author of The Physics of Star Trek). Nothing settled, of course, but worth watching since it's only 5 minutes long.

--Percy


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Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Brad McFall, posted 05-31-2007 5:46 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2078 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 104 of 129 (402857)
05-30-2007 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Minnemooseus
05-10-2007 12:18 AM


Re: Giving creationism some much needed exposure
I think it will be polarizing. People who are strong in their willfull ignorance will remain as such and will be strengthened by it. The fence sitters who see it will fall on either side. Those of us who have always imagined that the creationist movement was actually one big financial scam know now for sure that it is the case.

Ham and co are preying upon ignorance. It is the oldest scam in the book. The one fact you can always count on is that suckers will always exist.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 105 of 129 (402969)
05-31-2007 12:45 AM


Pre-tour of Hamland
Anyone posted this link yet for a visit to Ken`s vision--oops---moneymaker.

http://studentweb.eku.edu/zachary_lynn/museum/index.html


    
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3199 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 106 of 129 (403067)
05-31-2007 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Percy
05-30-2007 9:57 AM


Re: Several postings at Panda's Thumb / Also youtube video
Very Interesting.

The video format fails achieve as wide a
"seperation" as has been achieved on EvC.

The seperation was attempted by the host AFTER the term "semblence of science" was raised counter to Ham. But this host failed to recognize that the adjective was the "mystery" and thus the "fair and balanced" was supposed to be that the host also reads the Bible.

Blah.

Creation and Evolution was not something that could be scripted in advance.

======
Also the link by Nightrrain above showing the human vs the chimp/Lucy Kind is were the disucssion needs to be targeted at. I am still not certain how I am to read that diagram of the past.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 107 of 129 (403072)
05-31-2007 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Minnemooseus
05-29-2007 9:41 PM


Re: Several postings at Panda's Thumb / Also youtube video
Thanks moose. Wonder how it would have gone with O'Reilly. Looks like Ham got beaten up but still emerged without scars.
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