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Author Topic:   Opponents of Evolution Adopting a New Strategy
subbie
Member (Idle past 1281 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 4 of 177 (469493)
06-05-2008 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
06-05-2008 1:28 PM


Something that would be both funny and helpful at the same time:
Put together a curriculum collecting creo misunderstandings and explain why these things in fact are not weaknesses of the ToE.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 06-05-2008 1:28 PM Percy has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1281 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 15 of 177 (469728)
06-07-2008 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Wumpini
06-07-2008 1:36 AM


Re: What do you think?
quote:
What would be the reason for a group of people to argue that the weaknesses of a particular theory should not be required to be taught?
The answer to this question, specifically as it relates to evolution, ir quite simple. The things that creos want to get presented in schools are not weaknesses in the theory of evolution. Broadly speaking, and off the top of my head, they all fall into one of these catagories:
1. A misunderstanding of the ToE.
2. A (probably intentional) mischaracterization of the ToE.
3. Nothing to do with the ToE.
4. Something actually quite well explained by the ToE, but creos don't get it.
Whether there are "weaknesses" in the ToE depends entirely on what one means by weakness. If you mean questions that the ToE can't yet answer, everyone who knows anything at all about it knows that there are millions and millions of questions that the ToE can't answer. Although it seems paradoxical, the fact that there are unanswered questions is one of the hallmarks of a vital and flourishing theory in any science. Any important scientific theory is going to point to vast areas of new research for further inquiry. Thus, if you mean that we should teach that evolution doesn't answer every question in the field of biology, I can't imagine that any scientist would object.
The reason why people are fighting against creo attempts to "teach the weaknesses" is because their idea of "weaknesses" is bad science, and because it's a blatant attempt to continue in their efforts to undermine the teaching of evolution. The obviousness of this is demonstrated by the fact that they don't want to teach the "weaknesses" in geology, astronomy, chemistry, physics, botany, or any other field of science (except, occasionally the portions of those disciplines that contradict their narrow reading of the bible).
I can absolutely guarantee that it has nothing to do with scientists being "afraid" of facing the "weaknesses" in the ToE. As many people have explained in many places on this forum, the lifeblood of science is exposing weaknesses of theories. Any scientist who could present an objection to the ToE that would undermine the acceptance of the theory would win a Nobel Prize and be the most famous scientist since Darwin.
Broadly speaking, the work of scientists can be broken down into three different types of activity. The first is creating and refining hypotheses and theories. The second is putting those theories into practical effect. The third is doing one's best to prove that any given theory is wrong, and the more well-accepted a theory is, the more to be gained by disproving it. That in large part is why Einstein is so famous. Not just because his theory is so revolutionary, but because the theory that he disproved, Newtonian Mechanics, was probably the most widely-accepted theory in the history of science.
The problem is not that there are no "weaknesses" or that scientists are afraid of "weaknesses." The problem is that the "weaknesses" that creos want taught aren't "weaknesses" at all, and certainly bear no relation to science in any way.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Wumpini, posted 06-07-2008 1:36 AM Wumpini has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Wumpini, posted 06-07-2008 10:08 AM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1281 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 23 of 177 (469771)
06-07-2008 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Wumpini
06-07-2008 10:08 AM


Re: What do you think?
quote:
Do we have a list of those things that are being proposed to be included as “weaknesses” in the textbooks?
If I recall correctly, this website was included in the article from the New York Times (I no longer have access to the article itself, so forgive me if I'm mistaken). Pretty standard creo fare.
quote:
Are these weaknesses that do exist present in the current textbooks? What would you consider to be the major weaknesses in the “Theory of evolution?”
As I said, the answer to this question depends entirely on what you mean by "weaknesses."
quote:
Is it not true that in the past the textbooks have included numerous false characterizations that were considered strengths for the “Theory of Evolution?”
It is not true.
I don't claim to be a textbook historian, so I won't tell you that there haven't been errors in textbooks. But I will tell you that any such errors that I've ever heard discussed were not "strengths" for the ToE. They were at most, individual pieces of evidence thought to support it. However, given the vast weight and overwhelming amount of evidence that supports the ToE, no one single instance of fraud is enough to undermine it.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Wumpini, posted 06-07-2008 10:08 AM Wumpini has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1281 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 74 of 177 (470279)
06-10-2008 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Admin
06-10-2008 9:02 AM


Re: Moderator Comment
This page from Strengthsandweaknesses.org presents what they claim are
a very small sampling of some quotes taken from peer reviewed journals and other evolutionist writings. In nearly all cases, the authors do believe in the general concept of evolution, and yet are pointing out weaknesses with the theory!
In as much as this thread began with an NY Times article specifically referring to that organization, I thought its list would be a good starting place since Wumpini seems disinclined to propose his own list or present anyone else's.
I fear that an attempt to deal with each of them would take hundreds of pages. I'd suggest Wumpini could select those which he (?) thinks are most compelling.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Admin, posted 06-10-2008 9:02 AM Admin has not replied

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